Anxiety ... Body vs Mind (Episode 08)

SPEAKER_02 0:02

In the US, in the next 12 months, the best estimates are that 27 million adults will have at least one panic attack. In the UK, one in five people will develop some form of disordered anxiety. There is certainly a physical component to anxiety and panic and all those things. Primarily, we care about the cognitive part of this. The interpretation, how you interact with it, when you think about it. If other people feel like me, why do we end up experiencing anxiety like this? Run or fight or freeze or whatever you need to do to stay alive. Well, I know you want me to do those things, but I I can't, I'm not going to do those things.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

It's the misinterpretation of a misfiring threat response. And that misinterpretation is cognitive.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Welcome to the Disordered Podcast. This is episode number eight entitled Anxiety. I'm Drew Linsolata, graduate student in clinical mental health counseling and therapist in training in the U.S. And I want to remind you that in the U.S., in the next 12 months, the best estimates are that 27 million adults will have at least one panic attack, but only 2% of them will develop panic disorder.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

And I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in anxiety disorders in the UK. Did you know that in the UK, one in five people, I don't know if it applies to the US as well, but one in five people will develop some form of disordered anxiety. In their lifetime, right? In their lifetime, yeah. I also like how you included dot dot dot. Like the dot dot dot could have just been a pause. It could. But fair fair enough to you. You don't get any there's no half measures with Drew. If he's gonna do something, he's gonna do it properly. No, I like to speak my ellipse if possible. So there are people too.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

That's that's his dating profile. I like to speak my ellipses. Swipe right if you also like to speak ellipse. So anyway. Anyway, welcome to this week's episode. Today, really, what we're gonna talk about is the fact that there is certainly a physical component to anxiety and panic and all those things. You really do feel it, it is happening in your body, but that primarily we care about the cognitive part of this, the interpretation, how you interact with it, what you think about it, what you say about it, to you, anybody that will listen and to yourself. So what do you think, Josh?

SPEAKER_00 2:32

I think it's a really good uh subject to explore, um, particularly with the stats. The question is, why do certain why do I feel this way? And if other people feel like me, why do we end up experiencing anxiety like this? Why is it disordered? Why are we the people waking up first thing in the morning with a sense of doom? Why are we the people with these intrusive thoughts? Why are we the people that are constantly having repetitive, scary symptoms over and over again? And yet four out of five people don't have that. Or if they do, why does it not become a thing? Everyone has a panic attack in their lifetime, and everyone I know has probably had one, but they don't necessarily develop you know an anxiety disorder. Um and maybe we can look at that today, you know, mind versus body is is is is anxiety a uh a problem in the body or is it a cognitive problem? And Drew and I well often discuss using our expertise that it's often a cognitive problem as opposed to it being physically scary, isn't that right?

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Uh yeah, I would agree with that. It it is certainly physically scary. And like I said to start the episode, you know, sometimes people will say when they hear me talk or they read what I write, they'll say, Oh, you're missing all the whole what about gut health and what about regulating your nervous system and all those sort of things. And we'll talk about that stuff down the road in other episodes, but yeah, that's all things. You your body feels things 100% true. So when you are in an anxious state, you are feeling things in your body that is never denying that. But the disordered part tends to come from how you interpret that and how you interact with that and what you think about that. So if you look at the stat that we opened the episode with, if 27 million adult Americans in the US are going to have a panic attack in the next 12 months, reasonable estimate, and only 2% of those will go on to develop panic disorder. And what's the difference between, you know, 27 million people with the same physical experience? And we talked about that in the like a couple of episodes ago, how what panic does in the body? 27 million people with the same physical experience, but only 2% of them will interpret it in such a way that they become afraid of it and start to become focused on it and latched onto it. I think that says something about the nature of the disordered state.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Definitely. I think the one word that unites all people with disordered anxiety who really struggle with it is the word misinterpretation. So it's like when I I am misinterpreting this, and I don't mean that as a kind of kind of a surface level error, like, oh, you're reading it all wrong. Technically, you are, but as someone who's been through it and looking back, yeah, it was a misinterpretation because of a really frightening experience. So I would misinterpret hundreds of times, oh, why is my heart palpitating like this? Uh is that the sign of a heart attack? I would misinterpret an intrusive thought about uh harming a loved one as fact or a premonition, because I'm misinterpreting my threat response. I would misinterpret derealization or feeling detached and suddenly quite lightheaded as you know the first sign of going insane. But I and I'd kept I'd keep misinterpreting it over and over again uh I'd as and miss mistaking it for intuition or a message that that needs my attention. And I think that's what unites everyone with an anxiety disorder. If you've got panic disorder, it's like, oh my god, panic attacks are dangerous, yeah, I need to give them my attention and it needs to be constantly there. Um, you know, if you've got social anxiety, it's I need to ruminate and plan ahead and act around interactions. If you've got generalized anxiety, is I just need to give all these what ifs my attention and act on them just in case that they, you know, those bad catastrophes do happen. You know, if you've got uh any of these driving anxiety, or I need to stay in the slow lane on the on the highway just in case I crash or avoid it altogether. It's the misinterpretation of a misfiring threat response. And that misinterpretation is cognitive.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Yeah, I agree with that 100%. One interesting, and I just tried to Google it, I can't find the study off the top of my head, but if I do, I'll put it in the show notes for this episode. There was an interesting paper that was uh published, I think not too long ago, where they had a bunch of people who literally threw their in their crazy thoughts or their wild thoughts, their intrusive thoughts into a hopper. And only a few of them were officially diagnosed with OCD. The other people had literally no complaint and no history of OCD, but everybody had the same thoughts. And when they were coded by clinicians, experienced clinicians, the clinicians could not tell who had OCD and who did not.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Fascinating, right? No, it's it's just what the brain decides to. Um also, really, this is super tricky, by the way. We're not we're doing we're talking about this from the it's a really sticky place to be in. And I'm you know, I'm talking talking to someone who suffered for years and Drew suffered for years. We're just talking about it from a place of you know, looking back at what we've come through, being in a good place, that's what the problem was. It's not that oh, that's the problem, you know, get on with it and come over here. No, everyone's got their own kind of journey to go through, and everyone's got their own kind of hurdles to overcome. But actually looking back, and when I look at what the similarities between my own recovery and my clients and all the people that Drew works with and speaks to, it is that it's that trusting that this is a false alarm and my thinking brain is only gonna suggest nonsense to me. Um, and it's gonna suggest it through visuals, through audios, through mind movies. Um, and we Drew and I were discussing before the episode actually it was um uh uh a large kind of proportion of people who develop anxiety disorders are very uh creatives, they're you know, musicians, artists, or anyone who can write, read, anyone who's really good with their imagination, um they they often you know do get stuck there because their their cognitive brain will misinterpret you know the sign of a headache and they'll play through the whole movie of being in the hospital and oh no, there's nothing we could have done, or you know, that kind of thing. You know, whereas some people like my mate Callum is really chilled out, he'll just be like, well, it's a stupid thought, in it.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Yeah, you know, and you're right, that that creativity or that propensity is a is an amazing thing, it's a wonderful thing. And then an anxiety disorder can turn that into a weapon really quick. Like, oh, let's see how creative we can get about doom, about what's going on here.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah, and this is why you ever get those the people with derealization and existential thoughts or existential OCD. Oh, give someone creative mind, derealization, a sense of dissociation, and then think about life and existence. Oh boy, they go down, they go down a rabbit hole. Uh the ultimate it ends up back here again. So by all means go down the rabbit hole.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

But I've been that discovered. I've I've gone down that rabbit hole, and yeah, a creative mind can get really, really creative and really loud and really sticky. So I think um what Josh said bears repeating. I think just knowing that it's the interpretation is great. That's kind of psychoeducation, and that helps you get started, but that doesn't fix anything. Just to be clear about that. Like, oh, it's just an interpretation, no problem. I'm all fixed. Yeah, I wish it worked that way. We would have no podcast to do, but this is it doesn't work that way. That that realization informs your recovery, but it's still really hard work to get through all this.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

What I like about our last episode follows on nice about self-talk because that I would actually use that psychoeducation talking to me when I was going through recovery, which is uh hold on, this is a physical symptom of anxiety in my body. Now my cognitive brain is misinterpreting that. And just in case, I mean how many anxious people say just in case? Oh yeah, just in case my threat response has released adrenaline and cortisol just in case that there is a threat to this misinterpretation. And part of recovery was saying was saying out loud, no, I'm just misinterpreting this. Yeah, my threat response is doing its own thing. It's I'm not broken, it's just happening when I don't want it to. Yeah, what I do next is super important.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Yeah, and that's the the hard part of that because it is happening in your body, and there is, you know, the title of the episode body versus mind or mind versus body, like, yeah, you are feeling all those things. So what makes it so really difficult is that those are signals from your brain, your interpretation to say run or fight or freeze or whatever you need to do to stay alive. And your job is to say, Well, I know you want me to do those things, and you're giving me all kinds of physical cues to do those things, but I I can't, I'm not gonna do those things. That's what makes this really difficult.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

So, yeah, yeah. Um did you ever have the kind of anxiety where you couldn't really notice it physically, but you did just feel scared. I used to scare that quite a lot. Well, I actually my heart rate was fine. Um, maybe I felt a bit derealized, I don't know. But I just I it scared me more that that kind of anxiety because I was a bit like, well, I'm not running around panicking or anything like that, and I'm not having any of the physical body stuff. It all originates in the body because it's all hormonal, chemical, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

But I I used to have that anxiety, I think it was part of GAD. You know, I had nothing else to worry about, so I was just worrying about the state of not feeling a hundred percent, and then that creates creates like a simmer of anxiety. A lot of GAD is like this inwards GAD is like I just worried about why I'm worrying a bit, yeah, and I can't focus outside of it. But that's the kind of worry in my experience, and when I've heard other other clients, is that actually they you know they can't feel their heart rate going, they're not struggling to catch their breath, they don't feel it's just they just it just feels like something's wrong, and they can often misinterpret that as a sign of well, maybe that is you know, a message from the future to tell you something bad's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Obviously, I would experience that as I as I began to get better, and my body was getting the message, but my brain kind of wasn't yet, because it's the slowest, stupidest part.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

I could have told you that, Joe.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Yeah, thanks, I appreciate that. Confirming that my brain is stupid, my partner, ladies and gentlemen. So but I I would get it, uh, and I remember feeling that where I just had that feeling of fear and uneasiness and and uh fear is the best word I could put. I was just afraid, I was I was upset, I was, I don't know what I was, but I didn't have all the short of breath, knee knocking, dizzy stuff. And it would happen sometimes in the middle of the night. So I didn't really have a lot of nocturnal panic attacks, but there were times when I would wake up in the middle of the night, whatever, gotta use the bathroom, or just wake up and suddenly be really focused on the fact that I I feel terrible, but I don't feel physically anything. And that was very alarming until I learned, like, oh, this is just another state to be in. So again, the interpretation of that yeah, though this this isn't right, something's not right. You know, yeah, I was to say I used to get I used to get like late morning though, yeah. Really weird, right? Like just this feeling like I feel terrible, and I don't know why, but I don't this isn't panic, I think. Yeah, it was it was hard.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

But even then, now acknowledging now that we don't do that now, it's like that isn't interesting anymore because we're not gonna get any messages from it, we're not gonna get any answers. Uh just like, oh, I don't feel 100%. Well, that's fine.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Yeah, that's fine. Whatever you know, you know, I think it's important if we're talking about interpretation and cognition and not being so focused on the body part of it, because that's not really in our orientation, not really the way out. But I think it's important to recognize that in a recovered state, if I start to feel that, I feel really terrible. Sometimes I can tell, like, oh, well, you know, I know what I was reading about before I went to bed, or I had a really heavy discussion with whatever, you know, somebody important to me, or there's some something going on in business, or whatever, like I can almost identify, like, yeah, well, I'm just feeling some stuff right now, as opposed to like, oh, what is this? Why do I feel this way? The state itself is not the problem anymore.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah, I think the the the the word why is very important as well, isn't it? Yeah. When you start asking why.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

And if I can't tell why, it's okay. Sometimes I can tell why in a recovered state, but if I can't, in a recovered state, it's like, well, I don't know why right now. Oh well. What can I do? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Yeah, I don't know. Now's not the time to answer the why. Correct. Now's the time to allow the threat response to pass. Yeah, which is um really interesting. I I was gonna save this question for the end, but um I think I'm gonna ask it now. One of our one of our listeners um has um has asked, and they've been in therapy. They said, you know, I've been in therapy and this and that, and uh kind of conventional talking therapy, and they said, Um, you know, I'm often reminded whether it's you know in the wellness sphere or sometimes my my therapist and stuff, and I'm not bashing this therapist, but if you don't have an understanding of understanding of anxiety disorders, you you kind of your good intentions can often have have an opposite effect. Um, so is checking in on myself a healthy thing? Now it's something that I hear quite a lot, and it's something I heard a lot of my training. You know, check in with yourself, check in. But actually, if you're someone who struggles with an anxiety disorder, why might that not be a good thing, Drew?

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Oh, yeah, I've I've been in some heated, I will call them spirited debates with people with therapists that I I respect and they're just throw it, throw in chairs and literally rolling out good. But uh because I have called that that advice out. For a person in a non-disordered state, the idea that you can stop, take a second, check in with yourself. What do you need right now is not terrible advice. And as a recovered person, I sometimes can use that now, and it's really helpful. But in a disordered state where the state itself becomes the source of alarm, telling somebody to dig inside to figure out what the state means and what it's trying to tell them is a recipe for disaster. You may as well hand the person in a burning building, just hand them a can of gasoline and then ask.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Yeah, it was something that's like if I my habit has to be to ruminate, there's something happening in my body, so I'm gonna use my mind to help me work out what's happening in my body. And I and and thanks to things like you know, like movies and dramatizations of therapy and stuff, my brain's just drawing upon what it thinks, you know, is gonna be the most helpful at the time to help me get through this. So I would I would sit and I would look for the miracle thought in my brain, but well, maybe if I find out the root cause or the reason or whatever, and I did do this for months, years sometimes, just going around and round in circles. Uh uh, why do I feel this way? What's going on at that question? Why, why, why? When actually, if someone would have just said, listen, you got super stressed, and usually around this age, if you're going to get an anxiety disorder, you will, because sometimes your sensitization just goes overboard and catches you off guard and it conflicts with your want to have control, uh, and you're going to misinterpret what is an adrenal adrenal adrenaline rush, an adrenaline flood. If someone was there to say, it's okay, you can just leave that alone. It's going to do some mad stuff to your body. It's okay to leave it alone. That permission to leave it alone would have saved me a lot of years of my life. But I don't regret it because I sold over 100,000 books. No, no, but I don't regret it because I don't regret it because actually both of us became impassioned to share and teach others because it would have just saved us a lot of time.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Yeah, and I think that there's that realization that, like, okay, well, guys, you're saying that I shouldn't be focused on my body, even though I feel it on my body, but it's always a cognitive problem, but I'm not supposed to dig into my feelings either. Well, like, well, kind of, which I know sounds like terrible advice when you look at general mental health advice, or I'll go there, you know, into instatherapy, right? So C-Rude always talks about instatherapy, which I love, and like, you know, wellness uh people wellness advocates and gurus and healing coaches and all those people, you know. And then the other and the anal analog to that question is the trust your gut. You gotta go go with your gut, your intuition, girl. No, absolutely the worst thing for an anxious person or a disordered person to do is to trust their gut. Your gut is dragging you up and down the block all day long against your will. Why do you keep trusting it?

SPEAKER_00 20:08

I don't understand, particularly with OCD as well, because it literally can often make people feel guilty. Yeah, so what is your gut? What is your intuition? Is it fear, depression with a side order of guilt? Yeah, no, that's just different things clashing here. It a lot of it is about leaving it alone. Now, I saying that in the past, people misinterpret even that. So, what so you're saying we don't go to therapy and talk about stuff and feelings? Absolutely not. There is always space in therapy to talk about stuff. We're talking about in the immediacy, yeah. Because people suddenly, um, how many people have how many times did you try this? I try I would like I I like meditation, I like mindfulness and stuff, but I'd only leave it till I was like triggered, yeah, and then get really annoyed that it wasn't working.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

It's working. Oh, I'm talking about today in my live stream, yeah, yeah, it's not working, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Or I I've tried the box breathing or the belly breathing because it was done in the immediacy of the anxiety, it wasn't done as a lifestyle change, yeah. Because I didn't like what was happening in my body, and again, my mind was like, well, let's try and fix it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

But there's nothing to fix. Yeah, there's nothing that makes it really difficult. So, you know, okay, so you don't have to fix your body, it's just doing what it's supposed to do. And but you don't, I I think when you say immediacy, I would use the word urgency also. People who are struggling, we all struggle with feelings and emotions and pain and conflict. We all do, and what Josh is saying is 100% correct. There's a place for talking about that. You have to. But usually when working on that stuff, it may be a painful process or a difficult process, but it's generally not an urgent process. If you feel An urgency to find meaning in your emotion or your thought right away, that's a clue. Like when it's urgent or feel imperative or uh like it's a safety issue, then then that's a pretty good clue that, like, oh wait, I'm stuck on finding meaning in my thoughts. And that's part of the cognitive interpretation. Anxious people, all people think things and feel things. People who are stuck in an anxious state, a disordered state, tend to immediately need to make meaning out of all of those things. Yes. In recovery, well, I don't sometimes I want to make meaning, but not always. I don't need to, it's not urgent.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Yeah. Yeah. And also remember, I'm misinterpreting the urgency itself, which is part of my threat response. Yeah. You know? It's usually when you press the button, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Oh, yeah, you're right. I couldn't play Hang on, ready? Omegdala. There we go. And uh now because I blew that, right? He's coming at me right now. You blew it. You I blew the soundboard.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Yeah, there we blew the sound. You had one job, Drew. One job. Yeah. Um, but it but it's like um you miss if you're feeling a sense of urgency to feel better, you and you are acting on that urgency in the immediacy of feeling um anxious, you're thanking the threat response as well. You know, this is why, you know, Drew wrote a book called 7% slower. It's part of that, it kind of addresses that urgency. Yeah. Because you don't need to be frantic about things and and remember that.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

Yeah, that's a word I should have used more in that book, because that is in the end what it came down to. It's okay to be fast. Some people are just fast, or you might work in a job where you need to be fast, but you don't have to be frantic or desperate.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

No, because it because it actually thanks the threat response. It's still sent sending a message here saying, I need to be urgent about this, so therefore this is important. Yeah. You know, uh, and but yeah, I mean I find that uh like really interesting. Uh, just a note as well, like a question that I get quite a lot is that people who have chronic conditions, so if you have uh diabetes or um Crohn's or Addison's or anything that requires you to actually check in on your body, um, or the anxiety can be a sign of like hypoglycemia or something like that, or low cortisol levels, or whatever the the condition is you have, that's okay. Of course you are. Like some people who have a high blood sugar might have have symptoms or a thyroid issue that that actually can mimic the symptoms of anxiety, so that's okay to check in. Right. We're not saying you have hypothyroidism and and diabetes and all these things, but just to answer that question is that yeah, of course, use common sense. If you if you live with those conditions and you're anxious, it is okay to have a quick check-in to be like, all right, okay, you know, look is is this actually is this actually physical? No, is this an actual interpretation or is it not? And I found that with clients, people in that situation, you get pretty good at distinguishing between them both over time.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Yeah, that's a really good point. You do get maybe in the beginning you're not so good at it, but over time you do learn. And it's interesting because at one point, uh, believe it or not, it was Dave Carbonell who said to me, like, well, not only is it okay, it's almost required. Like you have to take care of yourself. And I thought, oh, that's a great statement. So if you have diabetes or you have a thyroid problem, you're on meds, or people like pots is a big one, right? Uh is a big one in this community. Like, yeah, you do have to do things to actually take care of your body and manage your your health. That's okay. It's not only okay, it's required. But it might be a little bit fuzzy and you don't know the difference between it and the anxiety. But if you kind of disengage from that urgency that we're talking about, then over time you get to learn the difference. Oh, I oh, that's right. I know what this is versus is this anxiety or am I having a blood sugar crash? You start to understand the difference.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

You really do. Absolutely. Yeah, remember it's about our interpretation, it's what makes us different between from the four out of five people that can't really relate to you and the one in five that can relate to you completely. Yeah. And we speak as one of those one in five people, but come out, you know, the other side um in a lot better place. Um so what why do people then do like so? Let's say take panic attacks, for example, or usually I hear, you know, you have a nervous breakdown and then it happens. Why do people the two percent of people who have panic attacks, why does it become a problem? So, because a lot of people, and I used to initially think, why do I keep having loads of panic attacks and other people don't? Maybe there's something wrong with me. Right. Actually looking back, I was fine. I just there was just things that I that I was doing. Yeah, why do you think, Drew, that that happens? Why does it stick for some and not for others?

SPEAKER_02 27:06

You know what, man, that is literally the billion dollar with a B, the billion dollar question. I wish I had a definitive answer for that. And there's a lot of speculation about it, and maybe one day we'll know a little more about it. So there's a lot of research that talks about maybe some people are genetically predisposed to that sort of thinking pattern and those sort of habits, or you may have been taught, we've had this discussion before. Maybe you grew up in an environment where the world was, you were told the world was dangerous, and you have to be careful and always make sure you get all your bases covered, and you can learn those really hyper-focused or hyper-vigilant reactions, possibly. But there's no real definitive answer to that. Those things might contribute, but I also know people who are. I mean, look, I didn't think the world was a dangerous place, and I didn't come from a traumatic background. There wasn't pain that I had to heal or anything like that. I don't know. Like, if you know me now, you would think, how the hell did you develop that disorder? Like, I don't know when the building's on fire, I'm like, yeah, whatever, and we'll figure it out. But even I got trapped. So who the hell knows why it is? I don't know. You have any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 28:06

I have a theory. There's a theory I use, it's not necessarily original. Uh, and it again, it's a theory, you know, take this with a pinch of salt. But um I do share this with my clients. I think um we all have a stress jug, stress, stress cup, jug, whatever. Uh, and it's uh a metaphor for our ability to tolerate stress. Now, some people have a large stress jug, you know, that like my friend Callum that I mentioned before, he he can tolerate a lot of stress and be fine. But I think due to genetics, some people have a smaller stress jug. So I have quite a small stress drug, so I've got to be wary of what's in it. And I think people who develop anxiety disorders do. And I think this is why most people who develop an anxiety disorder is in their young teenager or young adult, because the stress of responsibilities of going into adulthood was the proverbial straw that broke Camel's back.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

I think and what goes in that stress drug is everyday stuff, you know, like uh career, relationships, family, finances, um, you know, and and your own subjective stuff, whether you've grown up, you know, in a bad home or been through grief, trauma, or whatever. When that drug fills up and overflows, is when our own threat response, the amygdala, amygdala, when the amygdala uh misinterprets that stress as danger, and we enter a pattern. Some of us can enter a pattern because the final thing that keeps filling up that stress jug, and maybe we'll do like a separate episode on this, I don't know. But the the final the final thing that's the that's that fills this stress jug is the fear of fear itself, or the fear of misinterpretation of fear. So people are like, Well, I'm I've got boundaries with my family. Oh, but I'm I'm I've cut out gluten, I'm not drinking alcohol anymore. You know, I'm getting more sleep, I'm going to the gym. Why am I still anxious? I was like, because yeah, okay, you've been emptying some of your jug out, but the main thing that's filling it up is that fear of fear itself, hence why you keep going around and around in circles and having panic and stuff like that, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

It I think it does make a lot of sense. I love your stress jug analogy. And I think when it becomes a fear of fear, you can never fully empty the jug. So, you know, you bring it back to the title of the episode. Well, then how do I ever empty the jug? Well, you recognize the misinterpretation, you begin to interact differently with it on a cognitive and behavioral level, as opposed to maybe an emotional or a physical level, and then you get you're not filling it as much, so you can empty it, and then it can be empty sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Whereas I even go as far as it can never be empty, but you can get rid of you can get rid of the stuff that you don't need in there, right? So for make sure life stuff. Yeah, so for me, grief used to fill up a lot of it. Yeah, and I'm never gonna fully empty grief out of the jug, but I did empty a lot of it out just by talking about it and doing stuff. That's where therapy is really good. Sure. Or check or checking in with my body, not in the midst of an urgency of panic or anxiety, but checking in with my body on days of perhaps bad anniversaries and stuff. That's when that advice is okay. So actually, I can feel this quite a lot here and in my throat today, and I'm carrying around grief, but in the midst of disordered anxiety with intrusive thoughts and the and they want to avoid stuff. No, I I wouldn't check in and do those things. So, yeah, we'll do another one on stress drug analogy. I quite like it. We could probably do could probably do our own stories as well, and actually blow by blow account.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

Yeah, yeah. It it matters in terms of how you get into that disordered state, it really matters, and it's applicable during your recovery, and it matters after. Like the stress drug is something we all have for every day we're alive.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

So someone asked me, Drew, the other day, they said, Um, you know, do you still get anxiety? I was like, Well, yeah, you know, or do you still get DPDR? Do you get derealized? I was like, Yeah, I got one, I had an episode the other week, just felt DPDR, but like the fear of DPDR was not in my jug anymore. Right. And actually, I saw it as a positive. I was like, why am I getting derealization? I I asked the question why? I was like, actually, you know why. You've probably been stressed recently and your jug's overflowing. So I'm like, actually, yeah, I've not slept properly for three days, I've not been eating the best, you know. I've probably had a few beers the other day. I've been so much on my to-do list, I've got deadlines.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

You know, I had a disagreement with a family member. Um, you know, I've not been on holiday phrases, whatever. All these things just started building up and building up. Not been to the gym that week or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

But then that was it.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

But it's so important to recognize, like you said, a lot of body things that really do matter. But if you were to add, now I'm afraid of the DPDR and I must find deeper meaning and find the danger and make it stop immediately, then you completely overflow the stress drug. So you can go to the gym all day if you want. You can eat all the fermented foods you want, it won't matter.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Thrice fermented kimchi.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Yes, I've I've been in that discussion too. Talk about that one day too. We'll do a fermented foods episode. That sounds exciting. Tune in for that one, kids. You won't you wanna miss the kimchi episode? But uh anyway. All right. Should we do a couple of do-it-anyways, did it anyways to end this? Or uh if you got one, I've got one. You know what? Interestingly, well, I think we kind of answered the question anyway. The question that I was gonna throw in was you know what? I'm not even gonna, because we answered we've been talking about it for the last 10 minutes. It was about turning inward. Is that something that stays with you even after recovery?

SPEAKER_00 33:42

No, it's about quite similar to the one that was asked. Yeah, about checking in in inwards focus and outwards focus. We'll talk more about inwards focus and outwards focus uh in the future, I think, because it's really important. Yeah, uh, particularly if we do an episode on Neurosception, which I think is really cool. Uh also it just sounds good, doesn't it? That's the name of Kimchi, that's for sure. That's the name of our first album, and our band name is Neuroception. Uh Thrice Fermented Kimchi.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

Thrice Fermented Kimchi, that new album by Neuroception. I would order Neuroception at a restaurant. I ain't touching the kimchi.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

That would fill out a hipster bar very quickly. Oh, it would. Uh yeah. Uh I have a good uh Did It Anyway. Um I have been following the Did It Anyway threads and proudly won recently. I had social fear and was afraid to meet some people due to some past emotional abuse that I'm dealing with. However, I decided to meet them head on anyway, and the fear over time naturally subsided. I love this trend that you guys have created, but I also felt that identifying that fear was itself very, very crucial before taking it on. Hashtag did it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

Oh, that's really good. Love it.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

That gets applause.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Studio audience has been a bit quiet today, but you've livened them up so that that's that's that's wonderful. Well done to you. That's outstanding.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

That was well worth the applause. They're very quiet, they're very well behaved. We know we have thousands of people in the audience. You guys know that, right? We're actually recording at Madison Square Garden. There's 21,000 people watching us right now.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Um chewing the kimchi slowly uh very quietly.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

Yeah, it's happening here. Um, so mine did it anyway that I have uh again, I won't name names, but unless somebody asks us to. Yeah. So for five years now, I've had a phobia that somehow getting on a spin bike would be the end of me. I used to do this three to four times a week, and I used to love it. Well, I got on that bike last weekend and I rode for an hour for a total of 18 miles, and I survived, and I'm going back again for more. Yes, it gets me all get on that spin bike. Now I feel like I want to get on my really cheap spin bike that's in my basement. But uh excellent job. Yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Superb, superb. Nothing but applause for that. Uh, and yeah, getting back on it as well. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Yeah. All right, that's uh episode eight of disordered, sort of in the books. You guys want to find all of these episodes? You can find us on our website at disordered.fm. Anything you want to add there, Josh? No, that's great. If you want to come say hello to us on social media, I'm anxietyjosh. And Drew, your handle is the.anxious.truth on Instagram. But if you search for the anxious truth, you're gonna find me all over the place.

unknown 36:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Yeah. And until next time, you have you have a lovely uh rest of your week. Yeah, we'll see you in the next episode.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Thanks for listening. Hey, it's Drew. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Disordered. Josh and I both hope that you're finding it helpful in some way. For more information about Josh or me or the Disordered Podcast, find us on the web at disordered.fm. That's disordered.fm. Hop on over and find links to our social media platforms, join our mailing list so we can let you know when new podcast episodes are available, and we'll send you easy ways to ask us questions and share your wins so we can answer questions on the air and share your successes with the community. And if you're listening to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or any platform that lets you rate a review, do us a favor and leave us a five-star rating and maybe write a review if you're digging disordered. It really helps us out and we appreciate that. Thanks again for coming by, and we'll see you in the next episode.