Dating With an Anxiety Disorder (Episode 80)

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hi, um I've just started listening to the podcast and it's really helped me. Um I have panic disorder and I get quite intense panic attacks that kind of knock me out for a couple of days. Like I end up taking a lot of time out of work. I had three years with I want to say no anxiety, and then it kind of reared its ugly head um in the last couple of months, which has actually fallen into um me getting to know someone new. So I haven't been dating um with anxiety, and now like I'm at quite a good place with this person, and like he's really lovely. And during this quote unquote getting to know each other, dating, the anxiety has got a bit worse, and I'm not sure how to approach it because like it's things like he wants me to meet his friends and his family, but that's like territory I've not crossed with anxiety, and I'm putting it off because I don't want to embarrass myself. I need to I want to make a good impression, and I don't know, any tips would be fantastic on dating with anxiety or with panic disorder, and yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31

All of your dating advice from two people who know nothing about the subject. Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 80 entitled Dating with an Anxiety Disorder. I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm a previous sufferer, author, podcast host, and Instagram prancer arounder, providing all sorts of information on the topic.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

And I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist practicing under supervision in New York in the US of A, also specializing in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders. Also a former sufferer of these problems for many years of my life on and off. Better now, three-time author, social media dude. I don't do as much prancing as you do. I probably should prance more. That's true.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

Yeah, you're gonna get those likes, man.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

Good prancing. I'm not prancing enough. And I'm a mental health advocate, whatever you want to call it, educator, co-host of disordered, where we're here to just talk utter nonsense about a topic that we don't know much about, but we do know a lot about anxiety.

SPEAKER_03 2:38

So definitely. And um dating, dating, early relationships, or even in relationships, but we'll look at dating with an anxiety disorder today because it's real life. Anxiety disorders kind of intrude in different parts of our life, different facets of our life, and dating is one of them. You know, we always talk about what non-anxious us would do. And if you're someone who is dating or starting a new relationship, and you're taking the anxiety with you into that relationship, we look at the hurdles to that that can crop up, and I think it's a really good question. So thank you, question sender in a for that.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a thing we hear about a lot in in the community surrounding our work. It's and it probably does need to be talked about, talked about more. So I think we're just the guys to do it. You know, you can't separate those things if I have an anxiety disorder, and it's also okay to want to be in a relationship, like we are wired to belong and want to connect and have intimacy and all those things, and like that stuff doesn't just go away because you're dealing with social anxiety or OCD or GAT or panic disorder. So, how do you make those two things like coexist? Or how do you work through like relationships and building intimate relationships while you're working on recovery? We could probably talk about this for a full day and still not have good answers.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

It's complicated. Also, we can provide our top dating tips of which will have to come to us spontaneously because uh but probably the last two people you'd ask about dating tips.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Um I'm never on the spot, but when you said that, I was like, I got nothing. In my head, I'm thinking I would be making stuff up. If they disagree with you, just assume they're gaslighting you. Yeah, that was that exactly. The internet told me that anybody that disagrees with me is a narcissistic gaslighter, so it's fine.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

We'll just say whatever we want. I look forward to uh exploring this topic. Um, but as per usual, we like to celebrate community wins. Uh we've uh we had a lovely uh Did It Anyway sent in uh by someone, didn't we? Which it's a very autumnal theme. It is. It's got it, it has that theme, so let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Hi, Josh and Drew. This is Gina from Madison, Connecticut. I have suffered from anxiety for 40 years and severe panic attacks. I have been listening to your podcast for about six months now and have read all of Josh's books. He has totally changed my life entirely. I did a did it anyway last Sunday that I wanted to share that I could never have done without both of you. I went to a farm to pick pumpkins with my son and daughter-in-law and my little granddaughter. And I was very nervous because I could never have done crowds. But I did that, we went on the hayride, and then we actually went into the small store so I can buy her pumpkins, and the line was very, very long. Um, I stood there, I was anxious, but I did it anyway. And just the happiness on my granddaughter's face was amazing. And when they left, I actually went back in to challenge my anxiety and went by myself. And the anxiety lost, and I won. I am on a great recovery with the both of you, and especially Josh's books, and as well as my therapist. I could have never done this without both of you. Your mom should be extremely proud, and I cannot thank you for everything that you have done for me and everyone else.

SPEAKER_03 6:24

Yeah, well done.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Just kept going. She was not done yet.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

No, and Drew was on it there with the with the Billy Mace. Yeah, yeah, you get the credit. I love it. Really nice, very autumnal as well. Embrace it up to the pumpkin patch you go, and well done. You face the fear of crowds and the anxiety itself, and you did some new things, so well done. We really appreciate you sending that in.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

And thank you for sharing. You know what? One day, maybe we should do an episode where it's just our moms. I like that answer. It's like your mom should be proud of you. Like it'll be an episode which is my mother and Josh's mother. Oh my god. Straight back into an anxiety disorder. Oh, anyway. All right, so dating with an anxiety disorder, building relationships, intimate relationships. Dating has such a wide range of like definitions. So we anything from casual connections to like looking for a lifelong partner.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

Yeah, I mean, what I got from the question there was the not only like I fear anxiety, but I fear the externalities, the negative externalities of anxiety and how that may inform people's judgment of me. Oh, I I I'm afraid I've been putting it off, I've been putting off meeting um this guy's parents and family because maybe I'm a bit ashamed of my anxiety disorder. And I'd look at that straight away and be like, well, if you're ashamed of something, then what does that say? You you have a conditional view of yourself. Like when I see someone with an anxiety disorder, I don't think they're any less of a person. And so the first thing that came up for me, Drew, was what if someone sees me anxious and judges me?

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Yeah, she even says that in the question, which was really good. Like, I'm afraid of embarrassing myself, which is, you know, one of those top three or four, like sort of core worries when it comes to people that that experience really high anxiety. I'm gonna make a scene, people are gonna they're gonna think badly of me, or I'm gonna like my negative self-image is gonna be on view to everybody when I appear weak and out of control or or too emotional, or sorry about that, or whatever that was. Um, yeah, so it's a little bit difficult, I think. It's a really common thing. I don't want to embarrass myself, and I and I want to hide my anxiety disorder. I mean, how many people listening right now like are just openly tell everybody of your struggles? Probably not. Some people do, but other most people will try and keep it under wraps, which I get.

SPEAKER_03 8:52

Yeah, and I think that that that would be your first port of call is like not saying turn up at the at the family dinner and start hyperventilating and rolling around on the dinner table and and and stuff like that, because that's not gonna happen anyway. But you've got to be in touch with kind of who you are. Now you're not defined by anxiety, but who you are is acknowledging what's happening at the moment, and you will still be yourself, but it's okay if you're a bit anxious. And I would even commun hopefully communicate that with your partner as well. Because we don't want to go through life performing constantly. I understand. I live in the real world, you've got to you want to make a good impression, and in the real world, you can't, you know, go around showing everyone your vulnerabilities and and that that's fair enough. But at the same time, I would look at not only is it the fear of anxiety, but it's a fear of shame, and maybe look at some of the roots of that. What do you think will happen if you suddenly feel a bit anxious in front of people? Like you're not gonna lose your mind, you're not gonna lose control, you probably won't feel your hundred percent self, but even if you're only 50% you know, why why is that not enough for people? And also you've got to realise when people meet new people, there's always a level of um self-awareness and importance, and you know, not everyone is putting you under a microscope and analyzing everything you're doing. I would say use this as a as an exercise and to anyone dating, or is that when you when you meet someone new, you you know, to if you want it the potential for it to be a good understanding mutual relationship, it's about slowly showing the facets of yourself, including actually at the moment, I I'm I'm kind of working through an anxiety disorder. That's okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

Yeah. I think you know, there is looking for maybe the some of those sources of shame or that harsh self-judgment, or I don't think of myself very highly. You're I think you're dead on with that. That plays a big role here. I think the other thing that we have to acknowledge, though, is for somebody with an anxiety disorder where it is imposing all kinds of restrictions on their life, finding somebody who's okay with that and will work with you as the relationship begins to develop and doesn't just leave or like, no, no, I don't, I'm, I can't handle that. I'm out, is is a big deal. That's gotta be a big boost. I mean, that's a big win. Like, oh, I found somebody who actually is okay with this and is working with me as I, as I'm on this journey, I hate to use the word journey, but whatever. But I think it's gotta feel super tenuous for that person. Now, I can I can't relate to it in a dating or intimate relationship thing, but even my social and like business relationships felt thin. Like I was always on thin ice because I'm just barely holding it together. And any moment that whole house of cards can collapse. If I have a big like panic attack in front of his best friends, it's all over. That's it. He's how is he even hanging in here with me while I have all these restrictions that I hate that I have, he must hate that I have them. And this can be shattered at any moment if I get too too much, if I become too much. So if you add the source of like original maybe sources of shame or self-judge, self-doubt to that, ooh, it feels like super high stakes.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

Yeah. I mean, ultimately, you can date with an anxiety disorder. What are the main rules? It's like do what non-anxious of you would do. Yeah. Also, when you're dating and doing these things, this is what happens 99% of the time. You're so distracted and your attention is so external and you're you're immersed in the social event. You even forget that you're anxious. A lot of the time, people who have this fear, this only occurs in anticipation. When you're sat at home, when you're in the bath, when you're in bed, catastrophizing and imagining it. But put most anxious people in a situation where they are required to engage. Most anxiety disorders are an attention problem. And it's when your attention is external and you are engaging with people around you, whether it's trying to make a good impression or just getting to know people, you'll naturally find that you are less anxious. Um it also sounds a bit like it could be a social anxiety thing, too. If you've got a severe fear of judgment and shame surrounding who you are before the anxiety disorder, the anxiety disorder can kind of become enmeshed in that. And I say just date anyway and have a conversation with this person. Say, listen, when you say putting it off, be like, you know what, this is actually like an exposure for me. So I'm gonna try my best. And I hope, I hope I have your support with that.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Yeah, and I think some of the attention thing is important. So I'm gonna go and meet his friends or his family or whatever, you apply it to your own situation if you're dating with an anxiety disorder. Like this would be so challenging to me. And then you turned it into such a high stakes thing that, you know, when you hear people like us say, well, it's about attention, do the best you can to engage with what's going on around you. Meet the friends, be interested in them, ask them questions, like get into the conversation while you're anxious and worried. But that feels so risky because the stakes here are so high. This is my romantic life, my intimate life. This is the person that I want to spend more time with. I really like this person. Like, this could ruin everything. I can't possibly stop hanging on so tightly. Are you crazy? I cannot, I must hang on so tightly and prevent the disaster. But that's where we have to rely on the paradox that exists dating and otherwise. The harder you try not to be anxious, the more you're likely to have the problem that you are trying desperately to not have.

SPEAKER_03 14:27

And you're also fearing secondary fear, everyone gets anxious, right? Meeting new, like, particularly if it's a big deal for you, you know. So it's okay to be anxious here, that's the whole point. What we're hearing is, oh, but I'm afraid of my anxiety, I'm afraid my secondary fear will kick in. Yeah. Um, obviously, we've been answering the question from that specific context, but if you're someone who okay, you're single and you are trying to do what non-anxious you would do, and you're somewhere down the road with anxious recovery. You know what? I actually want to branch out to do what non-anxious me would do, and maybe start dating. Where do we start with that? Maybe you're maybe you're I don't know, you've matched someone on a dating app. Um, Drew's Tinder profile is lewd hunk 99. He pays for premium as well, so he's bumped up to the top in every state. And um, yeah, what would if you've matched with someone on there and like and you're worrying, Drew? Like, okay, like I want to start a day, I want to start doing what non-anxious me would do, but I'm afraid of my that my symptoms of my anxiety disorder might crop up when I'm dating. What would you say to that?

SPEAKER_02 15:45

Well, that's probably the most common like relationship question I get asked. Like, could should I do that? You know, should I I really want to start exploring dating and relationships? Like, should I do that or do I have to recover first? So that is a really common thing. Or what do I do? If I meet somebody, should I tell them right away I have this problem? What should I do? It's a good question as well, isn't it? It's a really good question. Like, you know, and what would I do first? I tend to think that the first thing that I would probably have to do, and again, keep in mind, I am not a dating expert. I'm an anxiety expert, but first is dateline system. You're right. I I think first you gotta be like you gotta get set with yourself a little bit. Like, what's my goal here? Am I trying to explore relationships because that's important to me? It speaks to my values, it speaks to the life that the recovered life that I want to have, and I'm gonna engage in that as part of the recovery process, or am I actually trying to find a way to satisfy my need for partnership or intermittent connection and also try to preserve my anxiety avoidances? That's really hard. Like, no, no, no, I want to date, but I also want to say that I can't go to dinner and I can't go to the movies, and I and you don't understand panic attacks will knock me out for a week. Okay. So I I think your first step is what am I trying to accomplish here? Do I need to find somebody who will be totally okay with my restrictions as they are now because I can't see a way out of them? Okay, well, that's that's a thing. Or do I want to use this as part of living to recover? Oh, I like that. It's still not steps. I know I didn't give anybody techniques or steps there, but I think you gotta kind of really define what am I trying to do here.

SPEAKER_03 17:22

Yeah, and also if you're looking from kind of surface level, if you go on a date with someone and let's say you get a bit anxious and flustered, maybe you have the inwards compulsion and you start worrying about your symptoms, whatever. And the person you're dating notices that, it's a good kind of indicator of the person who you're dating's empathy levels, and whether or not because if I'm on a date, not that I've dated anyone in years, uh, but like if I'm on a date and I'm getting on with this person and then suddenly they feel a bit flustered and anxious, I'm not gonna be like bothered with as in like I'm not I'm not bothered by that. I'll be like more out of concern. Whereas if someone's kind of like judging you for that and like, nah, maybe that isn't for me, that's kind of like a good thing in a way. I don't mean like cutting them out, but it's a bit like it's part of that connection. Whereas if you're going into dating as a people pleaser and the the date goes well because your date was pleased with you and your performance and your ability to hide the things about yourself you don't like, you know, you could argue that that's not really an authentic connection. It was a test on how well you could perform. So I always encourage go on your date and bring all facets of you. But most of the times, again, when you're on a date, you're you're distracted and stuff, and the facets of you that have nothing to do with your anxiety disorder come through because all your energy and attention's onto that. But uh, why is my printer going on? That's that's creepy. Is that what that was? Your printer loading paper or something? That isn't printed anything for 18 months. It's it's haunted. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Well, it is spooky season, so clearly Josh and his haunted printer have arrived. What on earth is it printing? I don't know. Uh now I want to wait and see what comes out. It's a it's a message from the Vega constellation. Let's see.

SPEAKER_03 19:24

Uh it says bye, and how does that make you feel? No, it doesn't. It's just printed some weird, um, weird characters on there. Sorry, everyone. That's all right.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

I'm leaving that in too. They needed, they needed to hear that spooky episode in your office. So well, Josh wrestles with his, he's clearly freaked out by his his possessed printer. I I think the point that he's making is a good one because one of the the second probably most common question would be now I don't know what to do because I'm on date number four or five with this person. We're getting along great, and like now I have to tell them. So like I've been hiding it and I carefully engineered those first four or five dates to be inside my comfort zone. And I made excuses for why we couldn't go to his place or like her place or whatever. And that happens so commonly, and then it's like, yeah, but we really seem to like each other, but now I now it gets even worse because oh, now I gotta fess up. So it's you're probably right. I but you know what though? Bring it with you on that first meeting. Bring it with you literally, like in the apps if you're using dating apps to meet somebody, which is fine. Like you almost got to bring that right in there for to start. But that's risky, though. That is a risk because you will you could get rejected. People that don't have anxiety disorders get rejected all the time when they're dating. Yeah, I think people with an anxiety disorder will take that even harder. Like, no one will have me this way. This is even worse. Like, I'm screwed.

SPEAKER_03 20:50

Well, not everyone with an anxiety disorder. I think it it it it kind of delves into your self-esteem, doesn't it? Because if you are someone with a very loud, harsh Craig the critic. And he can be loud, he will blame it on you. That didn't go well because of your anxiety disorder.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Yeah, yeah, that's a tough one. It's Craig the Critic. And I a part of what happens too, then, is you get that's what this is where it gets a little weird. And this used to get talked about a lot when my Facebook was active. The yeah, but then that person doesn't deserve you. So you then sometimes the response to Craig the Critic there is like, well, it was there, it's a them problem. Oh, well, yeah, it is to a certain extent. Maybe that person isn't as empathetic or kind or caring as you might want in a partner, and that's fine. But the defense to against Craig the Critic is often the knee-jerk other opposite extreme, which is like they can't handle that's their loss, which is true to a certain extent. But just I think be careful of that, that hard shell that then, like sort of like, yeah, but I know that it might have gone better if I could face my fear and get better. But uh at the moment, I'm not there.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

You're right about the non like non anxious. People, non-anxious you has the same probability of things not working, feeling rejected, dates don't go well. That happens to everyone. Sure. But when you take a very narrow-minded view of oh, well, that didn't go well because of the anxiety, and then Craig the Cricket, Craig the Cricket, Craig the Critic, and and your anxiety, and if you're struggling with low self-esteem, we'll all say, Well, it was because of how you did, how you performed. And really think about it. If you're someone dating, it's not about performing. There's always an element, a little bit of element of performing because everyone does that. They want to make a good impression, particularly if you fancy someone. But in general, you know, as things go along and the dating's going along, and then you're thinking, Oh, actually, you know, I wonder about the impact of this of my anxiety, my OCD, my intrusive thoughts, etc. Um then that you know, if the dating's going well, you can kind of introduce that into the next stage. Uh great tip from Drew there about bring it with you. My tip, tip number two on dateline is own it. Because I remember specifically as a personal story, uh, I went to my my partner's family are in um we're in Switzerland and we're going up a ski lift up a mountain, and I'm like, oh, I just don't like heights anyway, anxiety disorder or no, I don't like them. I don't like me feeling inside a glass box at the top of a mountain. Well, I'd say I did it anyway, but I went I went in and I said to everyone, like I owned it. I was like, you don't want to put me in there because that is gonna be one drama show, but I owned it, and I was like, I'll do it. But if I start rolling around on the floor and screaming, then that's normal. Just carry on ignoring it. Yeah, just ignore me. Yeah, yeah. But I owned it, and everyone's like smiling and laughing or whatever, and then suddenly I've taken away the stigma and taboo. You can do that on dates, like you can show it alongside the other facets of yourself, you know, how things are going, whatever. You can show that you're funny, interesting, whatever, and actually own it. Be like, you know, I'm going through, you know, I'm doing making some really good progress with some anxiety at the moment, you know. So actually, while we are at this restaurant, if I'm eating slowly, I'm not being rude, I'm just you know a bit anxious, but you know, I'm really enjoying the your company, etc. Own it. Own it. Just be like, this is what I'm going through at the moment. You own it. Or you know, if the date's going really well, I'm a bit anxious to get the public transport home or whatever, you know. Do you want to help me out? Yeah, sure, whatever. People like to feel helpful, involved, connected. Yeah, own it. Don't try to hide or sweep under the carpet as some deep, dark, horrible secret. Own it positively because we believe you can get better, and everyone can get better from an anxiety disorder. So it's also conveying your own belief by saying, This is where I'm at the moment, you know, and and it's going in a good trajectory.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Yeah. In a way, you can even leverage the fact that I mean, listen, I don't I don't know how but how you feel on your like social media accounts, but for me, like recently I just gained a ton of new followers on Instagram accidentally. I didn't try, but like it was a funny anxiety meme. So when you post like the funny anxiety stuff, like it attracts a lot of people. And I think that's a good thing because it tells us that we are talking about that more. So it's not like it was maybe 35, 40, 50 years ago in the Claire Weeks days when, like, oh, that's you know, that's the housewife's disease that they used to call it. It was horrible.

SPEAKER_03 25:24

Like it's always hysterical. It's hysterical, like typical hysteria, didn't it?

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Yeah, it was crazy. Like, and there was a lot more stigma. There still is. I'm not saying we're completely over that at this point, but I think there's a really good chance it's interesting that you hear people in our community all the time say, Oh, yeah, like I mentioned something at work, and oh my goodness, the person in the cubicle next to me opened up to me and said, Oh my god, I have that problem too. And like now I have like an ally at work. You may find that if you own it, like Josh says, like, hey, you know, I'm really enjoying this, but I do have this anxiety issue that I'm working on. And like, if if I get a little weird, it's not you, like, just stick with me here, you know. They might say, like, oh, I get that. You know, my brother has that problem, or my friend or my mom had that problem, or like, and then you know, they there now you have a little bit of empathy and common ground there.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

You're right about that. I use that like even you know, outside of in general, owning your anxiety. When I do, I've got a big talk coming up in two weeks in London, loads of people, it's terrifying, and I have all the intrusive thoughts, you know, about having a panic attack, what if I throw up, etc. So I just go on and say that. I just tell them like I'm really looking forward to doing the talk today. By the way, I am terrified. You know, it's the irony, I'm here to help you with your anxiety, but I'm also anxious too, and that's okay, that's the whole point. So if you see me shaking, pacing around a bit, squeezing, stimming, because I have autism and do those kind of things. My hand squeezes and flaps about. I own it. I'm cool. People expect it then. I think a lot of people, particularly if you're dating as well, is that you don't want it to be the grand reveal. Yeah. Oh no, I've been in the anxiety disorder closet, and I'm fine, you finally found me out. No, just own it from the beginning. Like, yeah, you know, it doesn't define you, it's just something that you're going through at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

I think how you talk about it too is dependent upon that first thing that I said a little while ago, which is where am I with this? Am I trying to find somebody who I can match with and and spend time with who will basically I I know I want to use the right words here because I don't want to sound like accusatory, but am I looking for somebody who will be okay with the way I am right now? Like, you know, yeah, I have just a ton of restrictions and things that I don't want to do and triggers that I have to, I want to avoid. I'm trying to manage my anxiety. I'm not maybe necessarily making a lot of progress, but I still want a relationship. Okay, cool. You're allowed to want that. So am I looking for that person or am I looking for, am I in the middle of like, hey, I'm working on this, you know, this is part of me working on it. I really want to spend time with you, and that's challenging for me because of my anxiety, but I'm working on it. And then maybe you get the person who says, All right, I'll hang in there with you while you work and I'll cheer for you. How can I help? You know, um, so it depends on what you're looking for. I think you got to be clear there because it that's gonna say how you talk about it. It's one thing to say, like, wow, this has been really challenging for me, but I'm working on it like two months ago. I could have never met you, and I'm so happy that I'm here and I and I was able to meet you, as opposed to, well, you got to know up front that I don't do movies, I don't do trips, like I'll never gonna go away, like I don't do family events. You you almost have to, how are you gonna talk about it? What how are you gonna how are you gonna present yourself and your anxiety? And it's none of it is wrong. It's just you got to decide how you're gonna do it, and I think be truthful.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

Yeah. Yeah. And don't rule out non like, don't make non-negotiables because if you're trying to I agree, you know, reach reach recovery, you it's like you say use the word yet. Actually, I'm not comfortable going I I'm dealing with agrophobia, I'm doing really well. I've making so much progress. I know you've invited me over to your you know, your parents somewhere on another country or whatever to meet. Uh, but at the moment I'm not ready for that yet. That's a good point.

unknown 29:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:00

So you're not. No, no, no, I don't do that. I don't do that, I don't do driving, I don't do no, it's like I'm just not ready for that yet. Yeah. And you can merge your dating, the progression of your dating, with your progression with your anxiety disorder.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Sure. I mean, and you we have to face the reality of the world. The A in act, you know, we're a big act fan here. Like, that's the acceptance part. People do struggle, and it's okay to reveal the struggle, that's because we all do sometimes. But then you have to also be accepting of the fact that, okay, well, part of the parameters of what I'm the parameter I'm putting on this relationship is I'm gonna look for somebody who will be supportive and work with me as I go through the recovery process. Will that maybe narrow the field? It might, but okay, that's that's just the way that's our reality, and that's okay. So it might mean you have to be a little more selective or whatever, or you might not have as much initial success as you want. But that doesn't mean that there's a problem with you, or you're broken or hopeless, or no one will ever love you. It doesn't mean that at all. It just means you're looking for people who are up for that that ride with you. And there are a lot of people that probably are, you know, but there are some that won't be, and that's okay. That's not that's not a reflection on you. I I would almost say, like at the 30-minute mark. How about a message? So if you are in the process of dating and and you are getting to know somebody, or you don't know how to introduce, you don't know how to explain your struggle. What would we tell the other party in the relationship? You could send them go to episode 80 of disordered and listen from the 30-minute mark. These guys will explain it. What would you about? Let's do it now on this date. That's exactly right. Like here's a head, here's a headphone. Here's my earbuds. Okay, amygdala. Run immediately. You would never never have to do anything. Don't bring us to the date. I promise that wouldn't be. What would you tell, like the other side of the relationship, the partner of the relationship? How would you explain this person's issue?

SPEAKER_03 30:53

And the way you explain it as well, not only how, but the way you explain it is indicative of how you feel about it yourself. We talk about attitude shifts. Practice it, how would you explain it to your pan? Actually, at the moment, yeah. Yeah, you know, I've really enjoyed dating. This is great. Uh, I feel happy, hope you feel the same, etc. Um, or even if it's after a first date or whatever and it's gone well, you can say, listen, I'm I'm in the middle, I've just coming through an anxious period at the moment. Um reflect on the positive changes you have, whether it's to yourself or kind of indicate that you're making good progress and being like, you know, if we're gonna date further or take this further, you know, just know that I will be going through this. Um, I don't require you to really do anything other than listen, be understanding. Um, and yeah, hopefully it progresses like like it is because I'm really enjoying it. That's what that's that's what I'd say.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

Yeah, for sure. And I think if for the the partner, the new partner that's listening, like this person that hopefully you're interested in, because they seem to be interested in you, and they sent you to this podcast. It's like you're in a you're building a relationship with somebody who has the most common mental health issue that we know in the world today. Like, this is not a broken person, this is not a mentally ill person, this is not a person with some sort of like um, you know, flaw that will follow them forever. This is a person that's struggling with anxiety, which is normal, that has gone off the rails, is causing them some extra struggles. But millions and millions of people in the world right now, as you listen to this, have the same problem as this person you've just been on a couple of dates with. They, it's not a flaw. It's just it's a thing that they've they their brain has learned some bad habits and they're gonna work on like unlearning those habits or building building back the regular habits again. So don't freak out. This is not a mentally ill, crazy person you're dating.

SPEAKER_03 32:43

And will that guarantee that the the dating goes forward? Or no. No, no, you run the same risk of things not working out as anyone else.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

That's a great point because that that uncertainty or the especially the control part of it. Like, okay, any tips for making sure that I guarantee the right outcome. I don't get pushed too far in my recovery, I want to go at my pace, cool. But also I want this person to fully accept that and and agree with it and go along with it.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

But you but you can't expect someone else to fully expect uh accept that if you don't fully accept it yourself. Right. It's really important, and also you know, if I'm going into like attachment stuff, which I won't, but like you can't find that feeling of self-satiation and self-acceptance through someone else. You know, that's why I hate those romantic movies like you complete me. I'm like, well, actually, that's an unhealthy kind of attitude to go into the relationship with. Don't take me to watch rom coms and stuff, because I'd sit there and be like, You're gonna ruin that. According to attachment theory, this is actually anxious, avoidant attachment, fostering a level of codependency, and everyone's like, get out, get out.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

I paid $50 to see this movie, shut up, uh yeah, yeah, I kind of get that, but that is such a good point, you know. And I think this is really common in the discussions that I've been in with anxious people. It's like, no, no, no, no. I this person has to, they must accept me because I I'm having a hard time with myself, and I'm gonna try and find that feeling through them. You can't, you just can't. You can't control someone else's thoughts, emotions. You can't.

SPEAKER_03 34:21

The overarching theme of this podcast and all that is just practicing being okay with uncertainty. Yeah, that applies to dating too, whether it's esteem, anxiety disorder, maybe you just maybe you just like someone and you want it to work, and if you can't have these guaranteed things, it's kind of living, really, whether anxiety or not, you know, there's that uncertainty that's always there. But what I'd always say is don't be ashamed of it. It's only a small facet of yourself at the moment, and you've got plenty of opportunity to show off all the other facets of yourself, which are just as at much of a risk of being judged as the facet where your anxiety lays.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Yeah, that's true. That's ooh, good moment. That is that's non-anxious. Honestly, that's non-anxious dating problems, too. Like everybody that's building relationships has flaws and quirks and things that don't mesh with the other person. And a lot of people are thinking, well, I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop when like that person figures out that I'm not for them and they leave.

SPEAKER_03 35:28

It's entirely possible that like you get through the date. Yep. And as you're revealing facets of yourself, like, yeah, this is what I like. TV shows are like um in sports, you know. I also have an anxiety disorder, and your date's probably going, Oh, yeah, okay, cool, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's cool, cool. And then you're like, on a Capricorn, they're like, nah, screw that. Yeah, I'm out. It was that facet that was like, I'm out, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Everything was going great, but Liverpool, what?

SPEAKER_03 35:54

You can't from the northwest of the UK, I'm out. I'm out, I'm out, right? Nothing to do with your OCD. It was just like I was fine with that. And I and that's entirely possible.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

You're right, because you know, part of I think what comes out is when you're in a relationship, yeah, you're doing things, you're going places, maybe you're going to the movies or taking trips, whatever. That's true, but you're also just interacting with each other. And in the moment where you're just face to face having a conversation, connecting or not, that has very little to do with your anxiety disorder. But your brain is going to drag in the trips and the buses and the planes and the trains and the family events and the noisy stimulation stuff. But like, no, no, in the moment where you're just talking to somebody, that person is not interested in the fact that you can't go more than 10 miles from your house. They're just connecting with you in a conversation.

SPEAKER_03 36:37

So awesome final tip as well. Your dating as well. Lots of people with their anxious self-esteem issues, they think it's a job interview where they've got to impress. What do you think of that person? Yeah, good point. Is that someone that you could imagine being comfortable with, hanging out with, being yourself with? Because if you're if all you're thinking is, oh, you know, I'm afraid of what they're thinking, or they'll see my anxiety, then that's not dating. That's you putting yourself through interrogations and analysis and appraisals. Yeah. No, no, no. Just what do you think? That's what dating is. You're both kind of working out each other to see if it works. Excellent. And I never forget that.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Yeah. You know, anybody that's out there dating anxiety disorder or not, much respect to you because you know, I understand that I my lens, you know, I'm coming from like my cultural lens in a privileged position. I cannot believe the prevalence of people who now call themselves dating, make a living, sometimes a really good living, being dating coaches. We have gotten to the point where dating has turned into like a game of strategy that people think they need to be taught. God bless all you people. Like, God speed to you, because it seems super stressful for all of you out there dating. Like, are you saying that's the end of lewd hunk 99? Oh man, like, you know, it's it's a tough gig. It seems like a tough gig. So, like, I have a lot of admiration, especially for someone with an anxiety disorder. Yeah, you ain't gonna see lewd hunk. What did you say last time when I had my stupid notification? Oh, okay, what do you want? Okay, cupid. Okay, guys. Cracked me up. But uh, yeah, it's a tough gig for everybody. So don't let me know.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

Good good luck doing that. Yeah. Um, should we move on to the community part of the podcast?

SPEAKER_02 38:18

Yeah, let's do it. Um, we have a what do we have to play? We have a question about health, like health anxiety we could take, or you got anything else you want to throw in?

SPEAKER_03 38:27

Um, I have I've got a question or did it anyway. What do you want? Let's do the question. How's that? So maybe we should play. Yeah. Well, which can do question. Dear Josh and Drew, first of all, thanks for your podcast. Well, we well have immense, they've been immensely helpful. I've been really struggling, and still waiting for my first appointment with a therapist. My question is: in recovery from anxiety, what should you do when you have nothing to do? I've been getting better at taking my anxiety, fears, and negative feelings along for the ride and doing it anyway. Good. I have felt good after that and felt like it has helped my confidence. But often I feel quite low and anxious at times of the day when I'm not sure what to do next. Maybe I feel a bit tired and bored, and maybe a wee bit scared of being left with my own thoughts. I know that a good choice would be to continue with my day, but then I don't have any plans and I feel stuck in indecisiveness about what how to move forward with acceptance. So, what should I do when I have nothing to do? Thank you from R.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

That's a good question. R, thank you for sending it in. My my personal advice would be, and those of you, I know we don't do video here, but if you've ever seen me on video, go out and spend way more money than you should on a bunch of guitars that hang behind you on your social media video and learn to play the guitar badly and never justify the expenditure. I'm joking, but it's okay to try stuff. That's what that's why I have these stupid guitars behind me every time you see me on video. Like, that's the origin of these guitars. I did not know what to do with myself. I I lost my job as a full-time anxious person. I big chunks of my day that weren't like consumed with trying to stay calm and not panicking. And like I was lost. I did not know how to fill that time. And I went and bought a guitar and like, I'll teach myself how to play a guitar. That's one thing I'll do. But I tried a bunch of non-anxious you would have wouldn't have done or might have done. I did stuff that I wound up like, nah, I don't like this, but I had to try things, and sometimes it's okay to be bored, you just might be bored for an afternoon.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

I was thinking, I think you need to practice being bored.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

100%. I think it's a lost skill in this process for people.

SPEAKER_03 40:36

It comes, it comes up at we should do an episode on being bored. Boredom. That's it. Next uh um, yeah, it's um it's something that that comes up like you're doing really good when you're in third, fourth, fifth gear, and you've got an outlook for your attention, but now the next step to build on top of that really good progress is okay, I I've nailed that homework. What's my next uh actually practicing with no distractions? So the thoughts might come in, but that's the next stage. I need to practice being okay doing nothing, and I need to stop myself from ruminating or compulsing and just allowing my brain, maybe channeling your attention elsewhere, doing something at low-level stuff, whether it is playing the guitar, reading. Sometimes meditation is a good practice to do that. When you're doing mindfulness, it's like I'm doing nothing but observing my thoughts. Yeah, it's still something, but anything but rumination is what I usually say. But good question.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

We'll do boredom. Let's do that in our next episode. 81 will be about learning to be bored. And what's interesting about boredom, and we'll talk about it then, of course, is there's a lot of work being done on like the impact of constant input now that we have social platforms and we instantly just go and scroll whenever we have a free second. The negative impact on mental health and even cognitive ability by forgetting how to be idle. So it's not just an anxiety thing, it's a general mental health thing, learning to be bored. Absolutely, yeah. Um, we got time to do, we're at 42 minutes. Should we save some stuff or we'll play one?

SPEAKER_03 42:04

We'll save, we'll save some stuff for uh for next time. Keep them sending in. We're gonna do a questions episode soon as well, as well as the boredom episode, uh, because we get loads of good questions. We can fill whole episodes for it. So tune in uh and we might read yours out and answer it. Um, but yeah, we'll we'll go through them. I enjoy the questions episode because yeah, they they might apply to you, or you might learn something new. Um, yeah, thanks for uh tuning in. You can follow us on social media, anxietyjosh or the.actress.truth. If you want to um, we'd really appreciate podcast reviews if you listen on Spotify or Apple, they really help us. And um, as mentioned at the end of the last two episodes, keep an eye out for disordered round table, which will be coming soon. Drew and I are just preparing it now. Um we're looking forward to having more live interactive events with the community. Should be fun.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

Thanks for listening, guys. We will see you next week.