Help! My Nervous System Is Dysregulated! (Ep 55)

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi Josh and Drew. My name is Trista. You can use my name. I'm from Australia. I am leaving a voice message with a question related to, I guess, parenting. I've been struggling with disordered anxiety for years. And I'm in the point of my recovery where I'm finding it hard to know when I feel quite dysregulated from the craziness of looking after two toddlers all day and needing to step away from that to calm my nervous system to then I can then jump back in. But when I start to feel dysregulated is when I start having all the what if thoughts.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

An author, a podcaster on this subject, clearly because I'm here, and a former sufferer of anxiety and depression and OCD for many years of my life on and off.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

And I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh on social media. I'm a psychotherapist specializing in anxiety disorders, uh, previous sufferer, uh author of the book, and how does it make you feel? And privileged to be the co-host of this podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:29

Welcome, dude. We're at it again.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

We're at it again, always good. It's one of my favorite times of the week. Um, big thank you to Trista for sending in that question. Um, yeah, we're gonna talk about dysregulation today.

SPEAKER_04 1:43

It is a thing. Or it's at least a topic. I don't know if it I don't know if it's a thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

It's uh it's something that's it's a term that's evolved in the popular sphere over the last six months to a year. Um, particularly if you're on Instagram or TikTok or even in kind of wellness culture as well, in certain books. Um for some people it can be very helpful. For some people, particularly with anxiety disorders, I think Drew would agree with me. Uh sometimes it's not. It's not. Actually, it can fuel compulsions.

SPEAKER_04 2:18

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's what we're gonna get into today for sure. In fact, this is such a good question from Trista. And I think uh it's really reflective of the fact that that word dysregulation or regulation has become so pervasive that we even have a new button today. Should we introduce the new button?

SPEAKER_03 2:33

It's called the Trista button. So, Trista, if you're listening all the way in Australia, you you influenced this. This is you.

SPEAKER_04 2:39

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_05 2:40

Regulators!

SPEAKER_04 2:44

Because they are everywhere on the internet, the regulators. And by the way, Josh pulled that little clip out. I cannot take credit for that. He boom, right on.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

We got credit goes to credit goes to Warren G and Nate Dog. Yes, thank you, Nate Dog. Early 90s hip-hop tune Regulate, which is an absolute banger. So listen to that as part of your homework.

SPEAKER_04 3:01

Yeah, that's part of your exposure homework is to listen to you know Nate Dog um and Warren G. Anyway, let's talk about regulating regulating your nervous system. I have strong opinions on this for sure. Um, what do you think about the idea that anxious people must learn to regulate their nervous system? Let's mine Josh up and let him rant instead of me.

SPEAKER_03 3:21

No, we took some deep breaths before we press record, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_04 3:25

We did.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Um, you know, if if I'm if I'm Trister at home and I'm I'm raising two kids and I'm really stressed, and I want some advice and things for it, and I'm on, and particularly if you're following Drew and I on social media, and you're gonna get the the social media feed that gives you all these narratives around regulation, dysregulation, you know, and that could come from anyone. Um, yes, overall, we'd we'd like a regulated nervous system, which basically means we're not anxious. Dysregulated means we're anxious, regulated means we're not. It depends on your relationship with it. Now, from the question, Trista, which again, really good question. I would what I heard, um, please write back if or let's know if I'm wrong. What I heard is when I'm really stressed, raising two kids, getting life's getting in the way, and I'm dealing with anxiety. Um, when I'm anxious, I get intrusive thoughts, and I don't like them and I feel uncomfortable. I would ponder the question. I'm dysregulated now, so I must fix this. And that's when things can become sticky.

SPEAKER_04 4:39

Yeah, I would agree. Just the start of that word dis. I'm dysregulated. And so, you know, Trista's describing a pretty common situation. She's got little kids, she's working hard at it, and God knows that's stressful for sure. The kids can get kind of crazy sometimes. But, you know, in that situation, well, there's a lot going on, the house is a little bit chaotic. I'm trying to like wrangle the kids and you know hurt them around. And I'm feeling that my body is doing things that happen when we get stressed, and I'm going to label that dysregulation.

SPEAKER_05 5:07

Regulator.

SPEAKER_04 5:11

You're going to hear that a lot today, guys. It's our new toy. But in this situation, like, you know, the label, or I think that the narrative that Josh was referring to, you know, especially like he said, if you follow us on social media, you're going to see this, is that I need to label that state as dysregulated. Meaning something is wrong because I'm in an agitated or elevated state. I'm agitated, I'm anxious, I'm stressed. My body is doing stressed body things. And so I need to call that something that has to be fixed. Is it dysregulated or is it just another state that humans would find themselves in if you were really stressed? Right? If you were going into like a job interview or something, or you had to stand in front of, you know, 10,000 people and give a speech and that made you nervous, would you say that my nervous system is dysregulated in that situation?

SPEAKER_03 6:00

Yeah, it's it's just a fancy name like like HSPs. You know, I'm a highly sensitive person. So therefore, things are different to me. Well, yeah, I we all are. I think I, you know, anyone with anxiety disorders can be a highly sensitive person. It doesn't, as soon as you start to apply this belief and kind of weave it into the core belief about yourself, you will slowly start to slide towards avoidance behaviors and compulsions. Uh, this is why we're talking, I never use words like HSP, stuff like that. If you do, that's great. I'm not dissing them. Well, not live on air, I do it afterwards. But um what I would do is I would say just be careful of your relationship with that word. I never use it as a therapist in here as an anxiety disorder therapist. Um, I hear it a lot. I change it though. So rather than calling it dysregulated, and like Drew said, the connotations with that to you with your brain is very negative. It's like panic attack. Actually, nothing's really attacking you. You're having a huge adrenaline surge. I call them adrenaline surge, adrenaline rush. Uh, because the connotations with it. Dysregulation is very similar in the sense that, oh, I'm dysregulated now. Well, well, guess what? Yeah, you know, life's can be stressful and you're going to be anxious. And if you have that fear of fear and you're struggling it and you struggle with intrusive thoughts and potentially OCD, you're going to be stressed and anxious. So switch dysregulation to, oh, I'm stressed and anxious right now.

SPEAKER_04 7:32

Yeah. Or I'm activated or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

I'm activated, like a power ranger. Like a power ranger. That's exactly right. I'm agitated.

SPEAKER_04 7:40

I'm activated. I'm anxious. Use whatever word you want. I, but I'm with you, man. The dysregulation indicates something is wrong here. And I and I don't know if that's correct. A lot of people will say, and where does that come from? That comes out of like, you know, in situations where people have a proud time, say, regulating their emotions. That's a real thing in mental health for sure. And it would come out where this person tends to react emotionally outside of the normal or the typical range we would find most people react emotionally. And they would, well, they're having a hard time regulating their emotions. And they're at skills that a therapist might teach them to help that with that. So it's an out-of-proportion response. And I've heard people say, well, it's the same thing with anxiety. It's an out-of-proportion response. Okay, maybe if you want to call it dysregulation, because my my nervous system is responding inappropriately strongly, if you will, that's fine. But as soon as you call it dysregulation and then you immediately launch into trying to fix it or prevent it, you're asking it to crank up even more. So even if you want to hang on to that definition from a semantic standpoint, and you're welcome to do it if you want, if you follow that definition and treat it as something that you must fix or prevent, you're literally having the opposite effect. So I think Trista's question sort of hints at that too. When the kids get too much, I how do I know when I have to go and regulate myself before I can continue? And guys, people like Josh and I might say, Well, do you have to? We would challenge that a little bit, not to minimize the experience, but must you somehow do something to fix your state before you continue? We talk about what non-anxious you would do all the time, right?

SPEAKER_03 9:13

So absolutely. Yeah. And also that can become compulsive. I've noticed that I'm not my optimal self right now. So I'm going to stop doing what non-anxious me would do and focus inwards, the inwards compulsion episode. Yeah. The inwards compulsion episode may apply to you. It's like I don't feel 100% myself. I feel uncertain, stressed, dysregulated. Be wary of the inwards compulsion, which is a very important episode. It's like, oh, now I need to stop and fix. Whereas non-anxious you may have gone, you know what? I usually put on my favorite show right now because it's for me. Do that anyway, because we teach the brain that's what we do.

SPEAKER_04 9:55

Yeah. Or, you know, uh non-anxious you might say, This is making me kind of crazy. I can't wait till they go to bed. You know, in the context of parenting, I cannot wait to just sit and like read my book or just binge watch something and just zone out. Okay, cool. That might be the response you do. You wouldn't immediately say, now I must grind my life to a halt to tend to my nervous system in some special way.

SPEAKER_03 10:18

Um But this is where psychoeducation, particularly for the regulators, is so important. The who? Regulators for two nights only. We'll we'll talk. I'm into this. Uh well you can't remember this. There's something from this episode. You can never observe the moment your anxiety disappears. Have you noticed that? When you sit and stare at your anxiety and observe it and monitor for it, threat monitoring, you can never observe when it disappears. It's the paradox of anxiety disorders. You're not sitting there just staring at it and suddenly, oh, look, I'm not anxious. It always occurs when your attention is distracted on something else, or 51% on something else. You can you when you 100% observe your nerve system anxiety in an anxious state, it doesn't disappear. It doesn't disappear because you're acting through the lens of a threat response, so you think it's being helpful. This is super important. Here's a really cool term. We've probably used it before, but it's so important psychoeducation around dysregulation is that when your sympathetic nervous system is activated, that's when you're stressed and anxious, when you're in a threat response. Sympathetic nervous system, remember that because it's so stupidly named. But what's sympathetic about this?

SPEAKER_04 11:42

It doesn't make any sense, right? It's the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Um, that's your parasympathetic nervous system. Now, the cool word here to remember, and he's he's like the bass player of the regulators, um, is called it's called neurosception. So the phenomena that occurs when your sympathetic nervous system, ah, I'm dying to oh, I'm chilled. That's called neurosception, the switch. And it's the same with parasympathetic nervous system going to sympathetic, it's neuroception, it switches between the two. So when you uh say, oh no, I'm dysregulated, I'm getting the intrusive thoughts, you're in a sympathetic state, and you are stopping what you're doing and staring at your symptoms, your thoughts, your feelings. It's got all your attention because you are willing for it to go into parasympathetic state. That will happen quicker when you leave it alone.

SPEAKER_04 13:01

Yeah, I man, that's that was worth the price of admission right there. We get in the episode right there. That was pretty good. That was damn good.

SPEAKER_03 13:08

Yeah, I was just feeling like trumpets going behind me, like, God, you're doing it, man.

SPEAKER_04 13:12

I'm legit just sitting back listening, like, this is good. I'm learning some shit here. And I think what's like a maximum desktop. Oh no, father to a mother husband to the gladiator thing. Um I think one of the things you would look at in that situation too is now it we that leads us into like the parasympathetic nervous system regulation activation hacks. Rub your ear, tug on your ear, activate your dorsal vagus nerve. But in a situation, if if you take what Josh just said, which is correct, your sympathetic nervous system has kicked into gear. Why? There's a threat, something is wrong, there's danger. I'm not supposed to feel this way for in our community. It's I'm thinking a thing and I'm feeling a thing, and that's a danger to me. Boom, sympathetic nervous system is activated. I'm dysregulated, air quotes for those of you who can see video, which you'll never see because we never post a video.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

But that's that in our boxes just oiled up, oh breaking. Uh oh, mahita. I need a moment now. Oiled up.

SPEAKER_04 14:11

Just press the button, distract, distract, distract, distract regulators. Um no, so now your sympathetic nervous system is activated because the state that you're in is is being construed as a threat. If you decide to launch frantically and furiously into parasitic activation hacks so you can regulate, by definition, you're going to be monitoring. I'm tugging on my ear, for instance, picking on you, ear tuggers, like, is it working? Is it working? Is it working? And if it's not working, if you cannot turn the switch off, the threat persists. And you're literally asking your sympathetic nervous system to continue to fire because is it working? Is it working? Is it working? You're staring at your anxiety, trying to see the moment that it turns off, which you can't. So that parasympathetic nervous system hack, the regulation hack, is backfiring. Now, yeah, if you're just trying to do some stress management stuff in like your daily life and you're not struggling with chronic and disordered anxiety, maybe. But for people in our community, I cannot tell you the number of people who just run through one hack after another after another after another, and then they wind up feeling broken because none of them, none of what they heard on Huberman is working for them, and they must be worse than everybody else. It's not okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:26

Yeah, it's you're absolutely right. Spot on. That was also good. That was done, guys. We're out. Mike drops them. That's good. That's good. It's getting getting full of ourselves, yeah. Um, yeah, it's you've got to remember, remember the two golden rules. Um, do what non-anxious you would do. But the second one is the wordy one that people always forget. I'm doing what non-anxious me would do. You know, I'm going to the cinema, I'm going to the supermarket, I'm doing these things, but I'm still anxious. Golden rule number two is where this comes in. It's is what I'm doing right now teaching the threat response that this feeling is okay. No, it's okay. It's okay to feel stressed and anxious. I know it doesn't, it's not nice, but it's okay. When you try to biohack it and fix it, you're not doing golden rule number two. So now you're probably thinking, well, then what do I do, Josh and Drew, with your self-righteous ranting? It's that I'll tell you what I do. I often appear dysregulated, stressed, and anxious, particularly around book launch, stuff like that. I have nothing left. I was telling Drew before that I'm so burnt out. And I'm quite conventionally anxious at the moment. So to switch my nervous system, I will go and do what non-anxious me would do with the knowledge and the and not the hope, but the knowledge and the belief that I will eventually switch off. So that requires going and so yesterday I played a games console, first 20 minutes. I didn't feel great. An hour later, I didn't even realize I'd I'd switched off because I wasn't sitting there observing the moment that neurosception kicked in. I'm like, has it kicked in yet? I've been playing games for 10 minutes. Have I have I regulated now? No, that's a checking inwards compulsion, and it's so important to realize to get my head around it. And there's so much misinformation out there, um, particularly on social media, not your fault if you've got in got into that. And for conventionally anxious people, this might work, you know. Oh, I'm using polyvagal stuff to do this and whatever. But when you are compulsive and within the the disordered anxiety community, you've got to be careful here, you know. It's a shame. You can't compress what we're saying into a 10-second clip, you know, by some wellness influencer who will tell you these biohacks because it's so really appealing. But no, it's the gritty, gritty, nasty stuff that you're gonna have to go through, you know, and and work out for yourself.

SPEAKER_04 17:59

Yeah, trial and error also like it takes a while to really get your head around this stuff because another concept that comes now blast from the past again from the early days of disordered, if you try to use those hacks, or even like Josh was saying, so you went and played a video game console. Like, I just need to get away from shit right now, idea. So I'm gonna play play some games. If you techniquify that, remember we used to talk about techniquifying. Well, I'll go play my video game to regulate my nervous system. Now you've completely negated the effect of like trying to just chill.

SPEAKER_03 18:31

There's a subtle nuance there.

SPEAKER_04 18:33

Because I was going to play video games to chill out, to relax, or to just disconnect.

SPEAKER_03 18:39

But the only difference is the the continuous, rapid compulsions of checking to see, yeah, and the urgency to get rid of it. Is it working? I know that this will chill me out if I leave it alone and play video games. Which means As opposed to, is it gone yet? Is it gone yet? I'm playing video games yet, is it gone yet? Is it gone yet? No difference.

SPEAKER_04 19:00

Because in that situation, you're willing. That's the then the attitude shift, like all the old concepts, this is a great episode. All the old concepts are tying in now. The attitude shift says, you know what, I'm super stressed. It's the end of a long day, it's the end of a long month in the case of Josh. Like I need to chill. So I'm gonna go play video games, but the attitude is I'm gonna have to bring this feeling with me into the game right now. And maybe I'm gonna calm down quickly, maybe I'm not, I don't know. But I'm gonna do the best I can to like try and enjoy this game a little bit and see what happens. It's not like I do this, I do these four steps in order to regulate my nervous system, and then I must observe a decrease in my anxious level, or I have to move on to the next hack that I try and use. You're almost guaranteed to, and even if you can bring it down in the moment, does that work, or do you find that you have to keep going back to the hack again and again and again over and over and over, and then looking for a new one when that one stops working consistently? Because again, you're teaching your anxious brain like we got to fix this right now. This is not acceptable to be in any state other than calm, which is not not realistic in a human life.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

I remember when I was struggling as well, and it used to frighten me because things that used to relax me didn't. So I love a nice hot bath. And I remember when I was really anxious years ago and quite, you know, quite unwell in the sticks, in the in the in the midst of it, the hamster wheel of anxiety. And all the things that used to calm me down made me feel worse because I'd realized the attitude shift had changed. Oh my god, I'm in a hot path now. This used to relax me, but now because I'm hot and my heart rate is accelerated and I'm not relaxing like I usually do, this would increase anxiety. And this is the same concept behind dysregulation and regulation. Is that yes, when I didn't have a fear of fear, of course I could chart in the bat. But when I've got a fear of fear, I'm adding to that fear because I'm like, oh my god, it's it's replicating the symptoms of this. And part of my exposures were doing things like simulating things that I used to do as an exposure so that they could relax me again. Yeah. And the gym was another one as well. Like the gym used to relax me, but now when I finished, I feel DPDR and horrible and weird. So then, but I wanted that back. So the exposure was to keep doing it without the urgency, without ear pulling and ice cubes on wrists and all that. It's just, you know, I I'm gonna do do this and and rewire my brain with compassion and patience.

SPEAKER_04 21:43

Yeah. This is one of those moments, I think, or the one of the concepts that really runs you up against the difference between the way we approach these problems and people like us, and the way sort of popular surface level mental health messages approach it, which is. We fix, we hack, we always address if you don't feel good, you hack that and feel better. And our message is always like Josh was saying, it takes time, it's nitty-gritty, sometimes just slogging through the mud. These are not you're right up against, like, yeah, these guys make sense and I want to do it this way, but I also want to find ways to hack my nervous systems to regulate it on demand. And these two things are sometimes not compatible.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

Well, you and I were lucky, Drew, because we didn't have when when we were really unwell, we were lucky to not have the absolute vortex of mass information on social media, each person telling me, you know, I had a Claire Weeks book, Paul David book to help help me get on my way, and then CBT was someone who got it, uh, and and kind of working through it myself, you know. I can imagine, like, don't get me wrong, social media is good, uh, particularly if you follow the anxious truth and anxiety Josh. But it so but also there's just a wealth of misinformation that contradicts each other as well. Yeah, so you get might get us there like ranting on about don't do this, blah blah blah. And then the next thing you scroll down to, you see someone going, I gotta regulate. And the some of the biggest names in the wellness sphere will use this language.

SPEAKER_04 23:18

And that's where you run into the you know, five tips, top five ways to to stop a panic attack. I mean, that's that's hard for people in our community here. It's like I've been trying all five and they don't seem to work.

SPEAKER_03 23:31

It's irresistible as well, isn't it? It's very if I was in that state, if I pictured how I was 10 years ago, and someone's giving me that irresistible nugget of I can take away this discomfort right now. I'm gonna go towards that like like a bee to a flower. Like I'm gonna be like, yes, that definitely drew and Josh, yeah, they make sense, but screw that. I'm sick of how I feel. I'm going towards that.

SPEAKER_04 24:03

And I don't blame anybody for that, by the way. That is not somebody. It's not your fault. It's not you're doing making a mistake, or oh, I'm not following the teachings. F that. Like you don't have to follow, these aren't teachings. So I get it. If you just want to feel better, man, I think Josh and I both want you to feel better for sure. And listen, I was not immune. Yeah, when I first, you know, sort of became unwell, if you want to use the term, you're right. I had I had a psychologist who handed me hope and help for your nerves, Claire Weeks book. That's what I had. And then when I was doing the bulk of the heavy lifting in my recovery, it was still before this torrent, this fire hose of social media. I bought a program. One, I did. And it I won't say the name. Well, we turn off the mics, I'll tell you whose it was. But this program kind of did that promising, like, these are the here's what you do when you and one of the tips, and even then, I was at least I consider myself so fortunate, I got into it a little bit. And this person I want to say the name, but I'm not gonna say the name because it's just gonna start a shitstorm. This person literally wrote in this program if you're in the supermarket and you begin to panic, which is was a thing for me, open the freezer door in the frozen food section and stick your head in. Oh and I instantly emailed to get my money back. And I got my money back, so it was fine. Person lived up to their promise. But that was so I just wanted something to make me feel better. I'd walk around with Claire Weeks and my headphones all the time, and and then I bought this program and then I got a refund on it, which was fine. But it was full of those sort of things. Curiously, the person who wrote that program pivoted a few years later and doesn't say that anymore, interestingly. So interesting. Tell me afterwards. I'll tell you afterwards.

SPEAKER_03 25:44

We can record some bonus episodes of this disordered after dark, which is you and I with a bottle of bourbon ranting on filter. Oh my god. Uh but no oil.

SPEAKER_04 25:53

Can we not be oiled up though? That's my only request. Is that we don't get oiled up? He's looking good, I will tell you guys that. But uh he was looking tired in the beginning, but the oil changed everything. I I think part of that is I was also susceptible. I get it, man. So if you're looking for like nervous system regulation hacks, I don't I don't blame anything Josh blames you. We get it. You just want to feel better. But you know, one of the things that I want to bring up a little bit is I did a live stream on my YouTube channel of a couple of months ago on this. Tell me if your nervous system is regulated, or tell me if it's just doing what you're asking it to do. So that the analogy that I used, and I think this could be helpful, and a lot of people seem to like it, so I'll throw it out here and we talk about it for a minute or two. Let's say that you go out and buy a car, you buy a Ferrari, and that Ferrari can do 200 miles an hour. It's built to do that. And then every time you get in that Ferrari, you stomp on the gas pedal, the accelerator, and you get up to 122 miles an hour in, you know, like 11 seconds, and then all of a sudden you discover this is super scary, and then you slam on the brakes, and then you declare that the Ferrari is dysregulated because it's going too fast. If you are going to constantly scan your own internal state for threats because you say they are dangerous and not allowed, are you not stepping on the gas all the time and then declaring the car to be dysregulated? Is it dysregulated or is it asking is it doing what you're asking it to do?

SPEAKER_03 27:15

Definitely. I think with when when you when your compulsions fuel most of your threat, I think sometimes when we talk about the stress drug analogy and stuff, sometimes you could be doing all the right things and still feel dysregulated and scared and panicky. Right. Uh for me it was the former, like you said. For a lot of my suffering was actually well, it was a mixture of both. And then back when things my life was seemed all right, but I still feared anxiety. A lot of it was me. It was me. It was like I say me, like compassion. I wasn't obviously I'm trying to help myself and not help myself make myself feel horrible. But that very act of it was kind of keeping it going. Um, oh, I also want to ask a very important thing we missed in Tristan's question. Um, she said, she said, um, I'm getting intrusive thoughts about being a bad parent. You're a bad parent. You're doing bloody brilliantly. You're doing you're being a parent to two kids with maybe an anxiety disorder, intrusive thoughts, potential OCD, daily stresses. Well done. Yeah. You know, you're not a bad parent. You sound like you care. I don't even know you. But the fact that you've sent in a question worried about your competency as a parent tells us you're a good parent.

SPEAKER_04 28:31

And the fact that you see that thought, and for anybody who's experiencing the same thing, Trista, as a read, oh no, I'm having a thought I'm a bad parent. That means I have to go fix myself. That tells you everything you know about your parenting. Like, I can't be, I need to, I want to be a good parent. Of course you do. And so you see that thought itself as I'm thinking I'm a bad mom, so now I have to go fix myself before I can cut so I can come back and be a good mom. It's an indicator of that, like, yeah, parenting is really important to you. That's all that means is that you love your kids and you're trying to do the best job you can. That's all it means. It doesn't mean you have to go fix yourself. It just means you're trying to do the best job you can, which is good.

SPEAKER_03 29:06

And next time you hear yourself thinking I'm disregulated, uh, not only can you listen to to this regulator, you can also remind yourself, actually, no, I don't need to take action here. I'm still I'm a good mom and a functioning person with this. And I'm gonna do what non-anxious me would do with this, because this is how I rewire my amygdala.

SPEAKER_04 29:30

But even when you do that, amygdala. But even when you do that, the I I think, and Josh mentioned a couple of minutes ago, it is important to say that. It sounds accusatory when I say you're stomping on the gas pedal and then asking it to go slower. No, I used to do that with exercise. I'm gonna exercise to calm down, and then my heart rate would go up, and I would try and calm my heart rate while I was on a treadmill. Like, come on, man. How ridiculous was that? I would I would be running on a treadmill and trying to slow my heart rate with my breathing at the same time. It's not that I was intentionally doing something still in in retrospect, I could think about it like, what was I thinking? How did I try and that was ridiculous. I couldn't possibly win that. But it such a shift. Even if you stop doing the things like, okay, I'm not gonna tap, I'm not gonna get my ice packs, you'll still be scanning. You don't mean to, but you're still stomping on the gas pedal because I I'm still gonna keep checking. It's almost automatic. It takes a long time to catch that. Oh, I'm checking again. That's okay. Be nice to yourself. It's not like I must stop tapping, must put my ice pack away, and must not think about how I feel. That's not realistic. You can't do that today.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

You reduce, reduce, and like a like the lovely uh red wine sauce. You reduce and reduce and reduce until it hits that nice thing. You reduce you can't stop it because it's compulsory. You just can't stop it, but you can reduce it and reduce and reduce. Welcome to cooking with jobs. Oh no, you don't want to cook with me. There's things worse than dysregulation, and that is my casserole.

SPEAKER_04 30:56

Yeah, the hot dogs, mac and cheese.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

Uh uh we we hope you got a lot out of that. Um, we're gonna spend some time now. Yeah, um, we got some did it anyways, and and another question, I think, but I wanted to read out um I I will read one now, but we got an audio one. We haven't audio.

SPEAKER_04 31:14

Do the audio did it anyway first? Let's do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Alright, here we go. Hi, Drew and Josh. Um, my name's Will, and I'm happy for you to use my name on the show. Um, so today I drove from London to Edinburgh, uh, and tonight I am in a little studio apartment on my own. And uh that usually wouldn't mean all that much, but during the summer I've suffered from uh really bad OCD intrusive thoughts, uh monophobia, all the things that you guys have spoken about. Uh I'm not gonna lie, I had to listen to a lot of podcasts on the way up the road, uh, but I made it and uh and I didn't panic, and that was pretty cool. And tonight I'm on my own, and um, you know, I'm feeling okay. Uh so I did it anyway. Uh not listening to a lot of the fear that was inside of my head. And you know, tomorrow's a new start, uh, but what a great feeling tonight. Take care and thanks for all you do.

SPEAKER_04 32:28

Huge round of applause for Will.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

Well done. That's really nice. You could hear the the pride in his voice. I love that. I really love when yeah, when when you hear someone's pride for doing something really tricky is one of my favorite parts of my job. I really do. And well done, Will. Uh that was a while back, actually. That but um I'm I hope you're doing well and continuing uh your good progress. Thanks for sharing. Uh, I've got one here to read out. Here we go. This uh they don't want us to use the name, but I'm gonna read it out. Uh hi Drew, hi Josh. Just wanted to start by thanking you for your amazing work. The podcast has been super helpful, and I've made such progress, thanks to you. Well, thank you. We appreciate that. Here's my did it anyway. I've been struggling with health anxiety, agrophobia, panic disorder, and intrusive thoughts for two years now, after going through some pretty big trauma, including losing my father to cancer when I was 23. Well, we're saddened to hear that. Uh, it started with a DPDR episode that came out of nowhere, which then made me afraid of an increasingly bigger number of things because I dreaded having another panic attack. We hear you. I used to keep busy and social all the time to push through anxiety. This, in air quotes, worked until I had to quit my job because I was just exhausted mentally and physically. After quitting, I barely managed being home alone. Bit of monophobia, like Wills had said. Going down to the nearest grocery store induced major panic attacks. I could barely eat or sleep. I kept seeking reassurance from my loved ones, which in turn made me feel guilty and like I was a burden to others. These past weeks, after seeking the help of a therapist, I felt ready for a change. So I tried doing small exposures and changing my views on anxiety. I've been able to take the bus to go to a store 30 minutes away from my house. I've sat in the park for an hour whilst feeling breathless, but still staying where I was. I've stood in line in crowded, noisy stores, even though I felt like I was going to faint. I even went on a weekend trip to the sea with my boyfriend, despite my phobia of freeways. I felt anxious at various levels whilst doing these things, but I did them anyway, knowing that I was able to endure the anxiety. All of this seemed absolutely impossible to achieve back in January. I still get anxiety and intrusive thoughts. My mind gets super creative and even comes up with brand new fears. I just don't see them the same way. I know there's no imminent threat coming up, and I get to enjoy some moments of relief. So thank you guys. Oh talk about taking on board the principles of therapy and what we talk about and being brave and courageous, willful tolerance, compassion, all of it. There, you you you've you've drank the tonic there, well done.

SPEAKER_04 35:32

You drank it, he's drank the Kool-Aid. Um, yeah, it's really good though. And I love those examples too. Sat in the park feeling breathless, but hung out there anyway.

SPEAKER_03 35:40

Like yeah, I related to a lot of those as well.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

Yeah, yeah, for sure. The bus. It's funny when when you mentioned, you know, I can take the bus 30 minutes away. I I was transported back to like, oh, that would have been terrifying to me at one point. So man, good job with that.

SPEAKER_03 35:57

Such a good job. Well done. Uh, we've got time for a question, I think.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

Have we? Yeah, we'll do a question. Let's do it. It's an audio question, so let's play it.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Hello, Jess and Drew. My name is Adam, and I'm from Sweden. I have a question about DPDR. I think you've mentioned in in previous episodes that a symptom of of DPDR uh can be that something looks really far away. That either one or both of you have experienced that. I have the opposite experience. That's if I have a conversation with someone, that person can look like zoomed in in a way. Like he or she's really close to me. You know, is that also a DPDR thing? Uh or is it something else? Thanks for everything you do. I really appreciate your work. Bye.

SPEAKER_04 36:47

Thank you, Adam. Good question. What do you think? What do you think, Drew? Is is it a DPDR thing? I I think it doesn't matter. Like, um, notice how the the threat response wants to be extra sure. Like, oh, they said far away. So I better check to see if like close up, feeling a zoomed-in perception. I better check to see if that's that might be something else. But it's not, it's it's the same. DPDR is such a hard thing for people to describe because everybody experiences it, I think, in a little bit of a different individual way. I have no idea, Josh, what your depersonalization feels like, nor do you know what mine feels like.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

So but what links them all is it's a warped perception. Yeah. Yep. So let's put it is an analogy that I've just thought of on the spot. Uh Drew and I go into a fun house maze, and there's a wall of warped mirrors. You know those mirrors where you walk in and they're all wonky looking wonky and all that. Drew and I both walk over to the same mirror. The very same mirror. I'm stood on the left, Drew stood on the right. I think I'm a bit taller than Drew as well. So we're both looking at this warped mirror from different angles. It's the same mirror. We can both describe it as the mirror, but what we see is different. You know, like my torso is like up near my neck and whatever, and Drew's face is really far away. Um, yeah. Also, I have I mean to provide you assurance before the next doubt comes along. Um, yeah, I hear that close-up thing quite a lot as well. It's it's it is like Drew says, it's difficult to describe. Obviously, do your due diligence and check with your optician and doctor, whatever. But in general, yeah, it's it's a common thing that we hear.

SPEAKER_04 38:26

Yeah, even the sounds. I've heard some people say that when they get into that state, sounds seem very loud, and other people will say, Oh, this it seems like everything is a bit muted. So it's just that temporary change in the way you're perceiving yourself in the world. Who the hell knows what it's gonna feel like? It's gonna, and for me, it often morphed, it felt different from week to week sometimes. So it's okay, but I understand the question. There's that worry. I better check just to be sure.

SPEAKER_03 38:48

Yeah, that's cool. And if you're nice quick questions as well.

SPEAKER_04 38:51

Yeah, thank you, Drew.

SPEAKER_03 38:52

It's always a pleasure, and thank you to everyone for tuning in at home. I love doing this and keep the did it anyways coming in, the questions coming in. Um, I think the there was a slight problem with the voicemail recording thing, but I think it's I think it's okay now. Yep. Um, but yeah, keep them coming in. And if you have a moment, we really appreciate a review on Apple or Spotify or whatever to keep it going. It allows other people to to find to find us.

SPEAKER_04 39:16

For sure. Thanks for hanging out, guys. And just remember one thing before we go.

SPEAKER_05 39:20

Regular.

SPEAKER_03 39:22

I genuinely forgot about that.

SPEAKER_04 39:24

How could you have forgotten that button, dude? Come on. Anyway, guys, thanks for hanging out. We'll see you next week. And uh, yeah, thanks for all the support. We're out.