Neuropathways, Habits, and Anxiety (Episode 51)

SPEAKER_02 0:01

That there's a spectrum of habits. Sometimes we have mostly good habits, sometimes we have neutral habits, and then sometimes we can have unhelpful habits, which anxiety disorders always, always fall under.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

Same thing starts to feel true for people who are struggling with anxiety disorders. The thoughts are automatic. The fear is automatic. In the case of things that are perceived as a threat, those pathways probably get developed much quicker. That's why we can learn to be afraid of, for instance, the sensations of panic after three panic attacks, but it takes so damn long to get out of that.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

It's way more powerful when you're doing the exposures than doing what non-anxious you would do because you are creating that new neuropathway. You do it once, you've started. Do it twice, you started a bit more. Do it a hundred times, well, then you're you're right on it.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 51. Today we're talking about anxious habits and neuropathways, which is something that I know a lot of people want to talk about and know about. And today we're going to do that. Uh, I am Drew Linsalata. I am a therapist in training specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders in the state of New York, in the USA. I am an author on this topic, a podcaster, and I guess an educator and a former sufferer for many years of my life.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

And I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh on social media. I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in anxiety disorders, a previous sufferer and author of the book. And how does that make you feel? Hey, what's happening, man? Yeah, it's going well, true. It's going well. Um, looking forward to talking about today's subject, which is anxiety as a habit and the neuropathways. Because it's another great bit of psychoeducation that helped me, particularly with habits when understanding compulsions and just general habits around being anxious.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

I agree. I think this will tie into some of the questions that I know you hear as well. We share the same community, often have to do with rewiring. People ask about rewiring your brain. People ask about uh neuroplasticity all the time. Is this is this about neuroplasticity? Yeah, kind of is.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Yeah, I think it certainly is. Um let's let's have uh an aperitif though before we get stuck in what we've got lined up today.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

Let's do an audio did it anyway from a member of our community. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Hi, Josh and Drew. Um my name's Grace. I live in Canada and I'm 26. Um, I just wanted to thank you both for this amazing podcast. It's really helped me quite a lot. Um, my small win this week is my parents went out of town. Um and I think I have monophobia because I don't like to be home alone. I do really struggle with it. I get a lot of panic attacks, especially in the evening. Um, but my small win is that yesterday I was actually like ready to go. I had packed a bag, I was begging to go with them, and then um I decided not to. I decided to just push through it for me. Um push through it to make myself proud, stay home, get all my schoolwork done and my jobs this week, and I'll be really happy about it on the other end. Thanks.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

Oh, well done, Grace. As a former monophobic myself, that part where she said she was begging to go with them. Boof, I feel that. Well done. Great done.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Well done. And then something just stepped in and was like, no, I'm gonna do it anyway. If if, like Grace, you want to submit your did it anyways and share it with the community. Uh, you can do on disordered.fm. There you can catch us um with emails as well, with questions or did it anyways, and we try our best to make our way through them all. And uh also a big thank you recently to people who've left uh reviews of the podcast on Apple and Spotify and stuff like that. Really helps us, and we've noticed they've helped because we're getting we've had an influx of listeners recently. You've just found disordered organically, which is really makes us happy. And so you've by doing that, you've inadvertently helped others. So we really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

Yeah, one of the coolest things is finding someone who follows you on Instagram because they found the podcast, as opposed to listening to the podcast because they already know us. Yeah, thank you, everybody. Let's talk about neuropathways and habits. I love this topic.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

I love this topic. Um, habits. Habits. Are habits a good thing or a bad thing, Drew?

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Well, they could be both. I have a lot of, I think I have good habits and I have crappy habits, like a lot of people do. You know, we try and work on our bad habits. So, yeah, in the context of disordered anxiety, habits can often be problems. The habits are based on avoidance and fear and irrational fear and following scary thoughts. Um, but habits aren't automatically bad because then we can build good recovery habits, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:46

So well, if you look at most of your day, it's a habit, loads of uh is habit, but good, helpful habit. Well, you know, I don't really think when I'm driving or having a shower or brushing my teeth. Uh, there's so many things that do on autopilot. When you do these things on autopilot in your life, it's because of habit, because of repetition. And it's designed to do that to make to give your brain, a cognitive brain, less, you know, less and it requires less resources. You know, if you had to really think about walking or doing something every day, you'd be exhausted by the time it hits 10 a.m. So a lot of things we do are just habit because it you know, if we can do things on autopilot, then we can, you know, we we have more energy for our brain to be committed to other things. And so habits and good habits exist, and probably a lot of our day is full of good habits.

SPEAKER_03 5:46

I like the way you frame habits completely different way than I did, much better. Like the the things we just do automatically because we do them so often, we learn them, and they become almost we're not even thinking about them, they just happen.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Yeah, yeah, and they're great. It's a there's a lot of negative connotations, isn't it? Around, oh, I've developed a habit. And yeah, well, what you're saying there is is an unhelpful habit. But to understand anxiety, anxiety disorders, compulsions, obsessions, and things like that, you must understand that there's a spectrum of habits. Sometimes we have mostly good habits, sometimes we have neutral habits, and then sometimes we can have unhelpful habits, um, which anxiety disorders always, always fall under.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

Yeah, they're just full, chock full of unhealthy habits. And I think it leads us to the whole neuropathways thing because underneath those habits are actual pathways in our brain, right? Like so when you just get really good at, you know, if you're in the gym and you get really good at a particular exercise, yeah, people will talk about that. You're in the groove, you know, mind-body connection, muscle memory. Yeah, you built that neural pathway, and you know, your body just sort of does things automatically. Same thing starts to feel true for people who are struggling with anxiety disorders. The thoughts are automatic, the fear is automatic, my reach is automatic. Yeah, those are habits, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Yeah, because there's been a solidified neuropathway. Now, in your brain, picture it like an atlas, a roadmap, Google Maps, whatever. Um, we've got millions, billions, I'm not sure, loads, loads of these little roads around our brain. Like on an atlas or a roadmap, you've got different types of roads. So if you look at a highway or a motorway, you know, that's usually in blue and it's bolder and thicker. Then you've got little A roads and B roads and side streets and alleyways, etc. Uh, and I invite you to picture your brain like that. That's what happens. Now, if I wanted to travel to London from Manchester, I'd put that in Google Maps and it would take me down the motorway. It would take me to the highway to London. Why would it do that, Drew? Why would it take me via the highway?

SPEAKER_03 7:57

Uh generally, path of least resistance is the easiest, the fastest, less energy.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Easiest, fastest, less energy. I can sit there on the motorway, listen to an audio book, just staring and concentrating in front of me, less energy. I could take the country roads all the way down to London, take me 10 hours, but there's a lot of twisting, turning, effort, slower. Yeah, I don't know. And that's basically what happens when we have thoughts. When we have thoughts, you know, it's the path of least resistance because that's what the brain is wired to do. And if I asked, told you now, think of I don't know, um, an eagle. And it's wearing a cap.

SPEAKER_03 8:41

Okay, Josh doesn't know I'm adding this to this episode, but since he gets the eagle sound, I think I should have one too. And whenever he plays that, I might respond with this. I mean, I think it's only fair, don't you?

SPEAKER_02 9:01

And sneakers and smoking a cigar, hundreds, thousands of neurons will be firing through your brain right now, because of me, and they'll be going down all these weird neuropathways that have never been used before, all these country lanes down your brain. Um, but later on, you might not think about that. Probably won't. You probably think, oh yeah, Josh played the eagle sound again because he always plays that, and because he always plays it, that's created a neuropathway. But the specifics of this eagle, with the with how I've just told you how it looks and how it's dressed, you're probably not gonna remember it. In fact, you might not even remember it now because you've only thought of it once. And so therefore, the brain isn't interested. However, with repetition and concentration and emotional attachment, you can create new neuropathways, you know, and most of them are really helpful, but some of them are not.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Yeah, and I think a lot of that has to do with uh importance. So, like an image of an eagle wearing a cap and smoking a cigar, you know, isn't important. It's funny. We we we laugh for a second. But in the case of things that are perceived as a threat, you know, where there's that safety and that survival thing going on, those pathways probably get developed much quicker. That's why we can learn to be afraid of, for instance, the sensations of panic after three panic attacks, and our life changes dramatically, but it takes so damn long to get out of that. So those pathways, depending on importance, are are gonna get solidified quicker. They're gonna get written quicker.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

Well, statistically, almost everyone will have a panic attack at some point in their lives, but not everyone develops an anxiety disorder. Very small percentage of people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

And it's usually what happens after the event. Yep. Yep. And what that's a million-dollar question, by the way. We won't have an answer to you today. Why do so many adults in the West experience, say, a panic attack and don't develop panic disorder, for instance? You know, only a small percentage of those will go on to develop panic disorder. Why is that?

SPEAKER_02 11:03

You know, we have a th I have a theory, Drew. I think it's our behaviors afterwards. What we do when we feel under threat. Yep. I think people, particularly I and maybe you, is that when we felt under threat, our initial um instinct was to go inwards and fix. Whereas some people, their initial instinct is to leave it alone and go outwards and external. However, anyone who's had panic disorder, agrophobia, OCD, or any form of anxiety disorder will know and remember their first big panic attack. And then they will also remember that their attention went entirely inwards. And they started to repeat behavior like overthinking, fixing, scanning, threat monitoring, seeking reassurance. And they'd have probably done that, you know, for a day or two, and that's fine. You know, I'm lucky because sometimes I get clients that come in here and they've just had a panic attack and they've been a bit scared for a few days. And you know what? If you get them early, yeah, they'll leave early. Yes. But if you've had an anxiety disorder for a long time or not had the appropriate help or psychoeducation, or actually had that inwards focus reinforced through inappropriate therapy, what happens is you start to wire neuropathways where the habit starts to become inwards. And this is the these are the people that wake up in the morning and check how they feel. Every time they're not busy, they check how they feel because that was a habit. You have created neuropathways through repetition since your initial scare. And I think some people are lucky and some people not. Me, I'm a fixer, I'm going inwards. I've always been a deep thinker, and that's been great, and I've loved it. But I tried to use that tool, that thinking method, that approach to having after having a nervous breakdown, and all it did was create loads of neuropathways in my brain, which makes me go inwards as my default thought. And Drew, you said the not uh not so long ago, you know, the default mode network in your brain, yeah, that's what it became for me. And to get out of that takes persistence, patience, compassion, and time.

SPEAKER_03 13:11

Yeah, because that does become those become the default responses to our thoughts, our feelings, our sensations that just it seems automatic. And I think it it also explains in many instances why people will initially, if they stumble upon this podcast, for instance, and they've never heard this sort of thing before, uh, the initial reaction is often like, wait, what? You know, that doesn't seem right because it goes against those pathways that have been written again and again and again. Seek safety, seek safety, fix it, seek assurance. Like, and here we are saying, no, you're okay. So you don't have to do that. So it's completely off off the map. It's not even on that Google map in your brain. By the way, here's a fun fact from Harvard Medical School 86 billion neurons in the human brain that form a hundred trillion connections to each other. Thank you, Harvard Medical School. That's a wow. Right. That's that's a that's a nerdy fact. I like that. It's a super nerdy fact, but I think it also speaks to like sometimes when we talk about things like neuropathways and rewiring your brain and neuroplasticity. Just want to acknowledge it for a second without going on a rant. It starts to veer, especially if you are compulsive about your recovery and that type of person, it starts to veer into like, oh, now I can hack my brain and I can I can micromanage all of these things. Oh, don't tell me. Look how complicated your brain is. So, like, this is about you know, rewiring your brain in our orientation to this, it's about changing your behavior and uh and writing new maps, you know, new pathways that then over time become the default path. So it's not about this isn't a hack, these aren't brain hacks in any way.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Also, this is why it's really important. This episode episode is gonna be so important for you to remember if you're in recovery, particularly, is that neurohap neuropathways, habits, and also a memory. Now, we as we know for a memory to be stored, it has to have some kind of emotional connection to it. This is why you remember a comedy gig you went to, or I don't know, the birth of your first kid, or your first day, or your wedding day, or when Newcastle beat Paris Saint-Germain 4-1 at home. You will remember them. I don't remember what I did the day before because it doesn't have those powerful uh uh emotional associations with them. Yeah, you remember your anxiety attack, you remember your intrusive thought, you remember that health anxiety or whatever because of the emotion that went with it. And so memory plays a part in it too, you know. But you can override that with repetition, discipline, and and and drive. Here's one. Drew, do you know the quadratic formula?

SPEAKER_03 15:43

Oh man, as a matter of fact, I do just because we did it so many times. Come on, what is it? So that's x, wait. X equals oh Jesus, now I'm going all the way back into the quadratic. It's x equals y squared plus z squared.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

X equals minus b. Oh, yeah, forget about it. I think this this is where everyone turns the podcast off. I know x equals minus b plus or minus the square root of b squared minus four ac all over 2a. That is a boring thing to remember. But you do. Well, what happened was was that uh our mass teacher just got us to sing it over and again, and he did it in a military chant. So he'd be like, x equals minus b plus or minus the square root of b. But the reason why I'm saying bringing this is because of the repetition and the emotion that he put to it. Yeah, this is why I always say to people, do what non-anxious you would do, because non-anxious you would go towards your values, fun, stimulus to live your life, as opposed to going inwards and trying to shortcut or compulsively stop anxiety. No, it's way more powerful when you're doing the exposures than doing what non-anxious you would do because you are creating that new neuropathway. You do it once, you've started. Do it twice, you started a bit more. Do it a hundred times. Well, then you're you're right on it.

SPEAKER_03 17:17

Yeah, you're on your way. I blame Pythagoras for my stumble, by the way, because I had A squared plus B squared equals C squared, was jammed into my head. So thanks, Pythagoras. Thanks for nothing. You embarrass me on the podcast. Um I love that. And I think it's so interesting too because the way you remembered that, like your teacher turned it into something fun and and something, you know, member the class did it together and you had that testosterone going because you're all chanting like a bunch of marines, which is cool. And I think it's so strange because you know what I remember? Here's a stupid thing that I remember. Well that the the odd couple lived at 1049 Park Avenue. Uh, Oscar and Felix led the 1049 Park Avenue. I know that's that's a stupid reference. The the phone number at the Honeymoon is was Benson Hurst 07741 when Ralph and Alice Cramden had a phone. These are things that happened before I was even born. Like for for goodness sake, these are just pop culture references, but they made me laugh, and therefore I remember those things. So it's just strange how that that's just wired in there. That ain't going away. Because memory attaches to emotion. Yeah, yeah, they made me laugh, and so I remember those those things.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

But you know, it's what that's why I can't remember a single thing about this podcast, because it makes me feel dead inside where we're completely that's important.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

Like you want two more dysfunctional dudes for an hour. Uh, I think it's funny because and then our negative bias, like human beings have that negative attention bias. Like we tend to remember the bad things. We go to the bad things. That's probably protective. If we forgot the bad things, we wouldn't be the dominant species, most likely. So the memory of the panic attack or the the flood of thoughts, say in a storm that might come up, you know, if you have OCD, for instance, we only remember how scared we were. We only remember how how scary it felt, how dangerous it felt. It's really hard for people to just decide to remember, but I was okay. They always forget that part. How many times have you heard somebody tell the story of like a big anxiety spike and they never finished the story, which was like, oh, and it dissipated, and I guess I was okay? They never tell that part, they only want to tell how it felt.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

That is well, that's really interesting. Because as you were saying that, my brain was like, actually, I do remember the times where panic and anxiety dissipated, and I felt like bang, yeah, I did I did the good exposure then. But why actually when did that start to change for you? It started when yeah, I think because you because you went through feeling the horrible bits, and then you suddenly felt that euphoric relief, achievement, compassion, and hope. Because you're like, well, I didn't take myself out of this situation. I remember standing on the London Underground for 20 minutes, and I got off actually. It wasn't the perfect exposure, but I got off one of the carriages because I thought I was gonna throw up or pass out or whatever. And as I got off, I was like, no. And then so I went to the next carriage that was even busier, and I was like, I'm not stopping now. Yeah, and then I remember just being in the carriage, and it was really busy, and then suddenly I just felt my anxiety passing. I was like, I didn't I mean I I cranked up this exposure, and now the anxiety is going down, and I remember that clearest day because of the emotion attached to it.

SPEAKER_03 20:23

That's exactly right. That's that superhero feeling of like, oh my god, I I did it. Holy cow, I did it. Like, and that feels really good, but that needs to be repeated then. You did it enough times where now you can access the memories of like, oh yeah, I remember I had that big panic attack on the Long Island Expressway, and it was over by exit 49. It was done, you know, and that feels good. But you know, that those pathways, though, are so they're well worn. Let's talk about the default. Like we we talked about in the last episode, that's what led it, led us to this. We talked about resensitized when you become resensitized, you know, was the previous episode if you want to go back and listen.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

I only remember because of the joyous hip-hop music.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

It's the only reason I remember. Oh, we did have some joyous hip-hop music in that. It's worth the listen by itself. But the resensitization is just, well, I was afraid again, or something came up that triggered these feelings and these thoughts that I that I've had throughout my life in various times. And those old neuropathways are still there. Like those, they still exist. And I was triggered enough by life to start to follow those old, I started walking down those old pathways again. And so, but that's okay because what you did in your recovery that got you further down the road is you started to create new pathways that are a different response and a different behavioral response. Oh, I just forgot. And I and I walked down the other path for a little while. And now I have to jump over back to the new path and start to work on that one again. So I think it's important we don't erase, you know, that was something that I had to learn. I used, and I said this in the last episode, you know, I can I'll I'll own up to the error. I used to say unlearn the fear. You can't. You can't unlearn the fear. Unlearn the right. You literally, that's not even a question. I was wrong about that.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

But what's but no, but it's what's nice is that you, as a practitioner and educator, will hold your hands up and say, Oh yeah, I'm still learning myself, even now. Yeah, I am.

SPEAKER_03 22:10

That wrong. You don't unlearn the fear. Like you literally, you that fear will still exist. You just build another response to it that becomes more likely for you to engage in. That pathway becomes stronger than the old one.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

That's why we get lots of like questions about relapse, stuff like that. Uh, let's use look at neuropathways more. And I'll use an analogy that you know, if you're a previous client of mine or um have read any of my books in the past, uh, not that you should read those, you should read the newest one. Uh, because it gives you the ultimate biohack to end all anxiety at once. Um here's an analogy I used to I used. I think I might have used it earlier on, and but let's really look at it in the context of neuropathways. Is that I always tell people to picture they are walking alongside a field of tall grass. So picture this tall grass, it's probably up to your shoulders. But on the other side of this field is the destination. So you want to go to the magic library. We want to go to the magic library because there's a book I want to read. And so, but if I've looked at maps, I've got to walk all the way around. It'll take me five, six miles to go all the way around to get to the magic library. However, I've just seen this field of tall grass here. It's only about 300 feet long. I could reckon I could save myself a lot of time here. And so you decide to walk along the field of tall grass. Now you've got to trample down that grass a little bit at a time. Stomp, stomp, stomp. And you can kind of pick up, see the direction you're going, but you know, you're concentrating on not, you know, falling into a hole or whatever. You're carrying on, and it takes energy to stomp down grass, but you are saving time. So it takes a lot of energy, and you get to the other side, and you meet the you reach the magic library. Well done, you brilliant. Um, then you turn around. What do you see, Drew? You turn around, you're at the magic library, then you you look at the field where you've where you've come from. What do you see?

SPEAKER_03 24:11

Yeah, the grass is all tamped down. There's a walkway now.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

There's a walkway there. You walked across it, you can see where you walked across. Brilliant. Brilliant. But however, you decide, you know, I've got enough books from the magic library. Um, I'm gonna come back a month later. So you end up the same spot, the same next to the field, and you look, but it's been a month. You can't see where that where you walked across. Now you knew it was possible to walk across it, so you do it again. Yeah. And you tramp along and you peep your head up. Oh, there's the magic library, I'm gonna keep stomping my head. Feet down, blah, blah. And you get to the end and you look behind. Oh, yeah, look, that's where I walked. Brilliant. However, you're real you're a bit of a reading boffin now, and you've decided you want to not read at home, you're gonna read in the magic library because they've got good lattes. So you go every day, and then you bring your friends, and you're over, but you you go the day after, and that pathway's still there. Oh, so then you walk along it again, and guess what? You're trampling down more grass, and then your mates are trampling down grass. And hold on, if you go every day for a week, you've actually made a path that the grass has really trodden down now, and that's an analogy for how you create a neuropathway. But wait, there's more. Wait, there's more. That was a helpful neuropathway. For people with an anxiety disorder, particularly obsessive, anything obsessive, you do go to the magic library, but the first time you go across the field, you walk into a bog knee deep, and it's nasty and it makes you feel dirty, and it's exhausting to sludge through it. Now the bog's not going to kill you, but lo and behold, you go through the bog and you get out the other side, and you get to the library, and you're a bit tired, and you can't be bothered reading the books. However, the mistake that people with anxiety disorders make is that they keep going across the path, the field, and going through the bog. However, the bog's only little. It was just unfortunate that you ended up in that bog. Right. And so what we're doing with our habits and our behaviors is to, yeah, keep walking across the old pathway, then make a new one around the bog. But you don't do that once because the grass will grow back quickly. You do it over and over again, you know. And some people, when they catch themselves compulsing, great, you've started to walk across the field. Now change it, change direction. Yeah. The thing is, you you will get through the bog anyway. That's the thing with anxiety. And you know you're in the bog when you're ruminating, compulsing, seeking reassurance. Yeah. But the key to recovery is to go around the bog using pretty much anything. And you wanted to talk about something, Drew, didn't you? About anything but the compulsion is creating a new neuropathway or a new way around the bog.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

Yeah, if you take any step that's away from the bog, you're doing something different. But I think this is a great analogy, by the way. I was just enjoying listening to you tell it. So I was rabbiting on a bit there. No, I actually really liked it. I'm going to steal it, by the way, so too bad you can't even stop me. But um, I'm totally gonna use it. I what I love about that is a person with an anxiety disorder believes in the with every fiber of their being that that bog is the only way to go. I I'm I have to get through that bog. I'm gonna slog through this. It's the only way for me to get to where I want to be, which is the library on the other side. And the library on the side might represent feelings of calmness or safety or like it's over. The only way I can do it is to slog through that bog. And you start to think, I hate this. And you think it's the right way to get to the library, but it's actually the worst way to get to the library because it's slow and muddy and wet and cold. And that's a problem. So we actually challenge that idea. Wait a minute, what if I could get to the library by not walking through this bog? And that seems ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

I'm going against the resistance of the tall grass. I'm going around, I've got to stomp down. Yep. How do I know there's not another bog? Doesn't matter. Just try it. You'll make it easy enough.

SPEAKER_03 28:26

Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, yeah, it sounds like, oh, tall grass, blah, blah, blah. He did do they even have they even ever had a panic attack? Have these two guys ever even known what it felt like? Yeah, we did. And I think part of the issue here is we're using a very you know oversimplified analogy here, but taking a step toward into the tall grass again to build a new pathway, it takes that's an act of courage for somebody with an anxiety disorder. That's an act of bravery. That is taking, in many ways, a leap of faith. I don't really know. There might be another bog when I go into this grass. I don't know that. I'm gonna have to roll the dice, the pentamillion gone that we always talk about now. Like that, maybe this is this is gonna be bad because my brain is telling me that any other path but through this bog is a problem. So I'm gonna have to take a chance because all these people around me, these two dudes with the microphones and the headphones, keep telling me it's safe. They're either psychopaths or maybe there's something to it. All these recovered people keep telling me it was safe. I'm gonna take it. Claire Weeks, Dr. Weeks, wrote that it was safe. I guess I'll have to take a chance. So it knows that starting to build that new neuropathway is an act of bravery and courage and commitment, and it feels incredibly hard to do and risky. You gotta we you can't just decide, well, let me just do something different today. You can want to, but it's really hard to actually do it.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Because the threat response and the amygdala will just say to you, no, this is dangerous, the stakes are too high, come through the bog. Because guess what? We go to bed alive every day at the end of the day for you worrying, so the only way through is through the bog. No, it's not. I'm I'm making my own new response to this. Yep. The first time I do it, it's probably gonna feel like crap. But I'll notice the the more I do it, it starts to become my default. Yeah, and actually, my brain is so neuroplastic, I could rewire my default language if I wanted to, and people do that. Yeah, people actually default their native language, you know. They're like, I my main language is now Spanish, you know, like because of repetition, because of commitment. If you can rewire and default your own language, you can rewire a reaction to anxiety.

SPEAKER_03 30:48

Yeah, but there's been so much repetition of the slogging through the bog that one day, as you're walking through that grass field again to get to the library, and you're you're taking your you have every intention of taking your new path, the path that doesn't get you wet and muddy and tired and exhausted. That's the path I like now. You haven't been through the bog in a long time, but something life happens and something in the tall grass bumps you, and you get a little bit discombobulated and you feel old feelings again. And next thing you know, you're walking through the bog again because that path is back. Yes, it's it's been tramped down and it still exists. It's you choose not to take it most times. But today I was a little I made I didn't make the choice I wanted to make. That's okay. I wound up on the wrong path. I'm in the bog again.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

I feel frightened. I feel frightened on this new path, but I know that old path that I'm used to, the habit that I know that will get me out the other side, you know. And I know it's not the side I want to come out, but at least I can get out the other side by seeking safety behaviors and avoidances and reassurance. I I'm willing to go and get through the bog today. Well, no, keep going. But even if you do do that, go back to the other one, you know. And what happens is you start to create different responses to anxiety and you start to break the habit. I was going to ask you, Drew, how much of anxiety disorders like our habit?

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Oh, I think so much. And what I find fascinating too is that we could talk about all the different habits, but really it's not so much making the a particular new pathway around the bog, which is forming a new habit. That is a specific habit. That would be the specific path that you can look at in a map is the content. What you're really building is the ability to make new choices. So and so that becomes a thing that we fork, I would like to use the word forklift. You take the experience of making the first new pathway around the bog, and you forklift that experience because if something is going on, a tree fell, and that new path is now blocked. Oh no, I have to go through the bog again. No, I don't. I know how to make another way. And so I can use my first experience of making a new pathway to make another one. That's where, like, now I don't have to just keep learning, I don't have to learn how to drive to the supermarket and then drive on the highway and then go to the school pickup and then go out to a restaurant. I don't need to learn how to do all those things again. I just need to learn that I can make different choices instead of the bug every time. And so you're breaking a lot of habits, but really only one.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:15

At least that one habit.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Should we give some like real life examples? So here's one. Oh, um, I'll use my own personal recovery. Um I'm feeling quite anxious. So, one compulsive habit would be to research things. So, if I was anxious and I've been invited to a restaurant, I would research the restaurant, how to get there, where are the escape routes, what's the table plan? And that was my habit just for that. And then the new habit was I'm just gonna go to the restaurant and see what happens. Yeah, you know, uh, and be anxious. Okay, I might not feel as hungry, so you know, not gonna order a huge meal, but that's fine. It's just being pragmatic. But in general, it was like, no, that was that was a habit. I used to do not just restaurants, theater, going to the theater. Oh, my habit would stop and plan and research. I'll get a seat on the end. Why? Just in case I panic. No. In fact, now I'm gonna do, I'm just gonna book a random seat and see what happens.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

And I, you know, stopping these, yeah, stopping those habits and making that portable. So you broke, yes, you broke the restaurant habit, but you also broke the theater habit, but they're really with the same habit. Instead of always doing right, the planning. There you go. So, like, what it really looked like is a bunch of different pathways now through that tall grass to get to a theater and another theater and a different restaurant and a shopping mall. Like, okay, it created all kinds of new actual pathways. But what really got broken was the habit of going through the bog every time, which was that's what's safe.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

The biggest one, and I love when you said literally doing anything else creates a new one. It was the big my biggest one in recovery was when when I wasn't doing exposures, and this is for people with GAD and stuff like that, fear of fear. Um my biggest one was that my biggest habit was constantly scanning myself, scanning for signs of anxiety, scanning for the symptoms, scanning to see how I felt, if there was changes, fluctuations, whatever. That was a habit. That was a really big neuropath where they went through the bog. So I purposefully and with intent for a week. Every time I caught myself doing that, I'd make a new path. I'd literally do anything. At one point, I'd just pick up a guitar and be like la la la la la la la la la. And I was like, what are you doing? Some people might be like, is that avoidance? Like, no, I'm just I've got to stop this habit because it's not helping me.

SPEAKER_03 35:42

Which is a different response to the scan. You didn't just turn off the scan. Every time you caught it, oh, I'm not gonna respond to it. Yeah, I caught myself walking across the field.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

I could see the bug coming up. I'm like, no, literally anything but doing this is gonna create a new neuropathway. Yeah, I didn't do it frantically, and this is about the attitude shift like, oh no, the bug's going, I need to run and not be anxious. No, sometimes I'd stand in the middle of the bog and be like, I can get out of this bog whenever I want, and I'll start now, you know, and doing that, and it all of it helps. Yeah, because it's breaking that habit and creating new neuropathways by doing literally anything than your compulsion.

SPEAKER_03 36:21

And I think the new neuropathway, when you start to build that, is some people will get confused and think, oh, I'll just choose a new neuropathway, and that's the that's the not anxious or not afraid pathway. Well, not at first, because it's hard work to build a new pathway, and you you build the new pathway while you're afraid. And all you want to do is run back to the old familiar one, even though it's the one that causes your problems all the time. So just be careful about that. This isn't like, oh, I'm just gonna rewire my brain tomorrow and like I won't feel anxious. No, you will feel anxious. It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Oh, yeah. Do it whilst you're anxious, because remember, you can only rewire the amygdala when it is activated.

SPEAKER_03 36:56

Yeah. Yeah. I would say for me, I had so much driving anxiety. I mean, I learned very quickly, oh, I shouldn't be driving because I would have panic attacks in the car. That it was the first time I got on the Long Island Expressway when I was doing my first, I got back on the Long Island Expressway and I was doing all my driving exposures, I was terrified. I was shaking, I was sweating, I had all the panic stuff. I have been doing a lot of driving exposure, and it I had to think, I had to remind myself that like, oh, I can use the experience of driving down those other roads that I practiced on. It's this, I'm gonna just use that here.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:29

And so that was anything but because in that moment, all I wanted to do was like pull over and not get on the Long Island Expressway. But I'm like, oh, wait a minute. I've done this before in 16 other, not the same but similar situations. Let me see what happens if I act the same as I did on Route 347. Yep. It was still scary, don't get me wrong. It was a tough two exits on the Long Island Expressway, but that's how I managed to like I didn't have to learn how to drive in the expressway again. No, just use the same skills that I built or the same pathways that I built, I just moved them.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Because you're challenging that fear and misinterpretation of fear. Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. Yeah, so that's some some consideration for you there. Um, listen, think about your habits, think about it, picture it. All these little road networks, little field, little huge field of tall grass, you know. Remember, some habits are great, use them, but identify some of the habits that are not helpful, particularly those who wake up first thing in the morning and scan how you feel. That's habit.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

And I think one of the things that you can do to challenge that, even while you're visualizing all these, like you said, the roadmap, picture those little, you know, all those paths. You think that you must. I'll use key continue the uh the library analogy. Right now, you think the only acceptable place to wind up is the library. So what you're gonna do is try to build new pathways that always get you to the library safe. And then you start to discover over time, like, well, these other paths wind up at theaters and restaurants and at my friend's house and at football games and at concerts and at record stores and alone at home or eating foods that I used to be afraid of. Oh, I didn't, I didn't always have sometimes I get to the library, but I didn't have to always get there to be okay. That's really what you learn over time. Like, oh, I didn't need to go to the library anyway by default all the time. I love that. Who knew? I love that. Um that's our very cursory discussion of neuropathways.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

Yeah, you don't want to bombard too much. We can always readdress the subject, but I thought that was a really nice topic to discuss. Um, as always, we like to uh celebrate and answer community questions and celebrate wins. Um we got any have you got any did it anyways, Drew?

SPEAKER_03 39:33

I do I have a did it anyway that I can read. So uh this was sent in. It's funny because this person had sent us a did it anyway. Uh I'm not gonna use the name because it didn't say to use the name. But uh sorry for the Debbie Downer did it anyway. Because it was kind of like, you know, giving us real-time updates as to how he was feeling so badly. But I wanted to say that the next, it was after a yoga class. So if you're listening, you know it's you. Um this person felt very bad after the yoga class, and it's like, I did it, but I feel really bad. I wanted to say that the next day I was starting to feel better about what I did. And I was even somewhat proud for going. I had previously made a plan to meet a friend at a jazz gig a few days later. Haven't been to a live show since pre-COVID. I love music, I'm an avid record collector, but my anxiety has kept me making excuses for not going there. Anyway, after the yoga experience, I was sure I was going to have to cancel with my friend and not go, but I didn't. Instead, I've been practicing self-compassion. I've been reading my book, The Anxious Truth. Um, I have been taking everything I do at a slower pace, actually mentally describing what I'm doing when I'm doing it. He's getting mindful. There's so much good stuff in here, and have noticed more prolonged periods of peace and even some contentment. Last night I went to sleep happy and relaxed. So, I mean, there's a whole lot more there. But this is a person who did it anyway, and then but didn't really feel it, that did it anyway vibe that the next day revisited that and did it again, challenged it, and then started to feel that did it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

I love that compassionate reflection. Where's give give this give this person an applause? 100%.

SPEAKER_03 41:10

So I love that. There's so much in there, so much in there.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

That's brilliant. Well done. Well done from us, definitely. Uh, I've got a question, uh, interesting one. Um I have had a relapse, and my husband struggles when this happens, as it makes him sad for me, and he can then struggle with his emotions. When this happens, I tend to go and stay with my mom to give him some respite from being around anxious me. But I'm worried this is also a bit of a safety behavior. But I don't want to burn out my husband, even if I'm not reassurance seeking, he can tell I'm anxious and not myself. More quiet, for example, and this impacts on him. What do you suggest? Am I damaging my progress by going to my mum's?

SPEAKER_03 42:04

This is a good question. Josh didn't tell me what the question is, it was a surprise, and I love this question. All right, I I'm gonna give you some of my own a little my my own personal experience. I a member of my family would know when I was struggling because they could see it on you. That's true, right? You know, we everybody will say, Oh, no one will know you're anxious. The people who know you the most know your little nuances, right? And she would ask, Oh, you know, she'd do the whole, like, are you okay? Because my leg would be shaking or she'd see it in my face. And I remember specifically having to say, It's okay, you don't have to ask me that. Like, I'm working on it. I can do this. You know, so if I need you, I will ask you for my help, for your help. But don't ask me how I'm doing, even if you notice this, I'm working on it, I'm practicing now. In so many words, is what I had to say. So one of the things you might consider is like, okay, I'm you we're not gonna lie and you know, blow smoke up your butt and tell you that, like, oh, your husband can't tell you you're anxious. He can, clearly. But what am I doing to show him that I'm anxious? What behaviors am I changing? When I sit quietly on the sofa, wringing my hands figuratively, scanning my body, he can tell I'm anxious. What if I didn't do that and brought the anxiety with me? And when he expresses his concern, what if the response was, I and it's okay. You don't have to ask me, I got this.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

I I think for me, yes, uh, thanks for sharing that, true. Uh, I also think it sounds to me from the question that you're not the only person who's anxious. And I think you need to both meet each other halfway. It's not I think a lot of what's happening here is that there's avoidance from both sides. I think what you both need to look at is the rule is it's okay when you are anxious, but that doesn't just apply to you, that has to apply to your husband. At the moment, it doesn't seem like it's okay when you're anxious. And the fact that he gets anxious in response to it is just reinforcing the fact that anxiety is something bad and something you have to react to. I won't don't think it's as simple as you avoiding it and you're trying to help your husband here, but he's got to at least re reach you halfway. He has to be responsible for his own emotions. Anxiety is something that crops up, you know, and I'd ask him, you know, this is okay. You don't need me being anxious, doesn't need to be about you. I know you will have feelings because you love me and can and care, but this is the approach I'm taking here. Being anxious needs to be all right. So I remove that secondary fear. But if every time I'm anxious, you're then going on, going off saying, This is making me burnt out, I hate it when you're anxious. That's a him problem, not a you problem. And you need to meet each other halfway. Now, don't get me wrong, I get it. You know, I I've been anxious in many relationships, and and it's exhausting for the other person too, but it shouldn't be black or white. And to be honest, I'd raise my eyebrows a bit though. You have to leave the house. Yeah, that's a big move, right? You know, um, I think that you know warrants a bit some deeper discussions. Maybe invol in invite him to involve you more. Maybe it'll empower him to have some some rules like Drew did. Like, you know, actually, you don't need to ask me, I'm okay, I'm all right, I've got this. If you're annoying him with reassurance questions constantly, then yeah, you know, that I can get that as annoying, but it doesn't sound like you're doing that, you know. So I I would be very like, it's not all about not upsetting husband, because you you're a lot, if someone's your partner, you should warrant someone's support going through this, and they should can help you and explain to them you can help me by modeling the reaction that I'm trying to um achieve in response to my anxiety.

SPEAKER_03 45:52

Yeah, that's a good point. And you know, when I would tell my family members, don't ask me. If you notice it, don't say anything about it. I was probably making them uncomfortable. But then they had to handle their discomfort. So I would also maybe suggest, and I'm glad you opened that up. I didn't really, oh my goodness, guys, these notifications on my Mac. Um, I didn't, I didn't hear that. Oh, you didn't hear that. Good. I'm glad maybe nobody else heard it. I heard it. But uh I think in that situation also, is he telling you that he's burnt out? Is he expressing that? Or sometimes an anxious mind, oversensitized mind, will distort and twist things. Mind reading is a really common cognitive distortion, catastrophic thinking. He's being burnt out, he he can't handle this. Is he telling you this? Is he it literally showing you that? Or is part of it I am catastrophizing over his three months? There's a lot going on there.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

Yeah, they said a relapse, and my husband my husband struggles when this happens as it makes him sad. Well, it doesn't need to be sad. I'm you just getting I'll get there. I'm going through an anxiety disorder.

SPEAKER_03 46:54

I'm okay. You don't have to you don't have to be sad, but you can be sad. You don't get to decide to not be sad, but it's okay for you to be sad, just like it's okay for me to be anxious. How about we practice discomfort together? How about that? I'll practice being anxious while you practice being sad. We'll be okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:08

Yeah. Very good. Great question. Great, great question.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

Great question. Really good. Thanks for sharing that, Sender Inna. Um, yeah. Thank you to all those that have uh pre-ordered. And as of this podcast, the book is out in America, but not in the UK. Sorry, UK, guys. And sorry, people who aren't in America. Maybe it's available in Canada as well. I'm not sure. And how does that make you feel? Is there? Let us know what you think. Um, thanks for tuning into the show. It's always a pleasure, Drew. It's one of my favorite things I like to do in the week.

SPEAKER_03 47:39

Me too. I I love it. Head on over to disorder.fm slash five one. I'll have a link over to Josh's books in the show notes. And yeah, follow us on social media, leave us a voicemail, leave us an email. Thanks, guys. We'll see you next week. See you later. We're out.