When Anxiety Feels Automatic (Episode 70)

SPEAKER_05 0:01

It all feels so automatic. What do you mean, like change the way I respond to this? It's automatic. I have to respond that way.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

What we talk about when everything feels so automatic is like, yeah, sometimes you can't stop thoughts or even your behaviors and choices.

SPEAKER_05 0:15

People will often like really berate themselves. Like, why can't I get it? How can I still have that thought? Well, we start from the premise that you can't stop a thought, or you can't choose to not have a thought, and you can't choose to not have a feeling. So thoughts and feelings are definitely automatic.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

Biggest part of recovery for me was noticing that my focus was automatic. Where do we have the power?

SPEAKER_05 0:36

If you have gotten to the point where you're actually asking, how do I change that? Because it feels automatic, then you are aware. That's the first step. That awareness is progress. You're not failing because you did the automatic thing. I can't say that enough.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

This is episode 70, entitled, But It All Feels So Automatic. My name's Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist specializing in anxiety disorders in Manchester in the UK. I'm an author, a podcast co-host, and a tall man with weird posture.

SPEAKER_05 1:14

And I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist in training in the US, in New York, with a specialization also in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I got all the same stuff as that guy, but my posture is probably better, and I'm not as tall, but also an author, former sufferer, podcaster educator, psychoeducator, social media dude, you know, the whole thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Welcome. It all feels so automatic. Uh, I can relate to that, can you?

SPEAKER_05 1:36

Oh, yeah. It does feel absolutely automatic. But what do you mean, like change the way I respond to this? It's automatic. I have to respond that way.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Yeah, it's a really interesting one. And for me, when I was what we talk about when everything feels so automatic, is like, yeah, sometimes you can't stop thoughts or even your behaviors and choices. Maybe you're someone who's struggling with compulsions, maybe you're really annoyed with the anxiety, and maybe Craig the Critic has Craig the Critic is then adding and compounding your misery by telling you, you know, why are you compulsing, why are you obsessing about your anxiety? And I really it was my idea to do this episode today, and I think it's a really um important topic, particularly um for those that are perhaps devoid of a little compassion. Uh, and then we'll talk you through what to do when things do feel automatic. Oh, that thought's automatic, that feeling's automatic, uh, that what if it's automatic, that that feeling in the morning, but just as I open my eyes is automatic. What can we do about that?

SPEAKER_05 2:40

Yeah, and it also comes. I like how you pointed out that self-compassion thing and the Craig, the critic thing, because I think that's a big part of this. Like, I can't, why can't I get it? People will often like really berate themselves. Like, why can't I get it? How come I still have that thought? Why can't I get it? How come I'm still afraid when I feel like a skipped heartbeat? Well, that you know it doesn't mean you're not getting it, it just means you're human. So yeah, it's really important to to to I think it's a great topic. I'm glad you thought of it.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

The more thanks, thanks, dude. Um, now before we get back to making it all about me, because this narcissism doesn't fuel itself. We should celebrate the community. Have we got any good did it anyways?

SPEAKER_05 3:19

We have two good did it. We have a did it anyway and a doing it anyway. Maybe we'll save the doing it anyway for the end, but let's play a did it anyway right now. Yeah, it's really good. We've never had a doing it anyway, but let's play this one because it's pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Hey, Drew, your patron, and the blimey Bret Joshua. This is Mike from Michigan in the good old US of A. You can use my name. Uh, wanted to say first, can't tell you how much this podcast uh and your guys re all the resources have helped me uh since I had her flare up a panic disorder about nine months ago. Um, wanted to submit my first did it anyway. My sister recently separated, um, and so she's got two kids, a niece and nephew, who I love very much, two and four, and I have been helping her out with them. Babysat alone for the very first time uh in their lifetime and in my lifetime. Don't have children myself, but uh we we kind of went over just a couple hours night before, had a little bit of that, you know, anticipatory anxiety was flaring up while I was there, um, had some anxious, but I did what non-anxious me would do. Uh, you know, we played some hide-and-seek, we, you know, let us play a few games on the tablet, we went outside, and after a little bit of time, it really started, you know, kind of setting and being comfortable. Um, and it gave me the confidence to help my sister more when she needs it and and be that uncle who I really wanted to be living by my values. Uh, thank you guys so much for everything you do, and I'll keep it, I'll be listening.

SPEAKER_05 4:55

Well worth a round of applause, Mike. Good job.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

I love that. Well done. You ticked all the boxes. Um what infectious personality you have. I was immediately smiling as soon as the way he started, I was like, we can't not play this.

SPEAKER_05 5:09

It's really good. I think Mike should be doing like a hockey podcast. I would listen to that. If he had a podcast every week about like hockey, I would listen to that. I don't know what hockey Michigan.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

To me, he was he sounded like my ideal ghost of Christmas present. You know, when when Scrooge wakes up on uh and just like the really jolly guy, uh just some guys and Michigan accent. I love that.

SPEAKER_05 5:30

Really good. I love it. And surprisingly, playing hide and go seek is exactly what Josh and I were doing before we hit the record button. So that was just coincidental, I guess. Usually play some games, some Legos, you know.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

No, we usually mess about and agree to meet at a certain time, and none of us have prepped, but there we go.

SPEAKER_05 5:46

Yeah. Good job, Mike. Thanks for sending it in. Appreciate it, brother. Automatic. Where do we start? Okay, I think where we start is an acknowledgement that it kind of is. I don't I think it is. There, there's you can't, but we start from the premise that you can't stop a thought or you can't choose to not have a thought, and you can't choose to not have a feeling. So thoughts and feelings are definitely automatic. And I think certain behavioral responses are often automatic. If I have a panic attack during this podcast episode, for the first at least 10 seconds or so, I'm going to do like, I'm going to be startled. I might even jump get out of my chair. Possible. Like it's automatic. So it's easy.

SPEAKER_03 6:27

And what you're describing there is that your behavior was automatic. So I think it's interesting, it's important to distinguish that, yes, sometimes your thoughts can be automatic. You know, don't think of an eagle. Oh, too late. So that can be automatic, but also with our behaviors too. And like Drew said, like, where do we have the power when we feel like anxiety, intrusive thoughts, our focus, particular automatic focus? Honestly, it's that was so important for me in my recovery was acknowledging that my focus was automatic. Not even the behaviors, not even the compulsions. The biggest part of recovery for me was noticing that my focus was automatic. So when I was doing an exposure or doing something scary, I remember one year ago when I got on a bus as part of an exposure. I noticed before I'd even got to the bus stop, my focus was automatic. It was inwards. I was scanning myself, and that was automatic for me. It was life-changing to realize that that was a behavior. And when I metacognitively observed that that was an automatic process, which we'll ask our guest next week, by the way. That's cognitive therapist coming up. But that was massive for me. Uh when I led in bed and wondered why I couldn't sleep, my focus was automatic. Yeah. Uh when I was on the treadmill, and yeah, I could feel an ectopic B automatic to immediately press slowdown. Yeah. You know, um, yeah. And so I think when we talk about things being automatic with anxiety, these are your thoughts. Sometimes they're even your feelings, yeah, uh, your behaviors, and I think, and your focus. And a focus and behavior can kind of go under the same umbrella.

SPEAKER_05 8:23

Well, I mean, we can maybe this is probably just an academic debate we could have for hours. Like, it could be that the thoughts are the automatic thing, and then the behavior follows the thoughts. I might get out of my chair if I panic right now, because I'm gonna have that OMG thought, and that will drive like jumping out of my chair for a second. So who knows? You don't know, it doesn't matter anyway.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

You don't know because you've got people who pick the skin, you've got people with trick or tailor mania, that's all mech. Yep. Or maybe, or although actually maybe now we are in the uh in the garden of uh Epicurus, uh discussing um maybe actually the thought was there, and oh I don't know. Who knows? Answers on a postcard test. That's interesting. But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter in the end, right? What what what does matter?

SPEAKER_05 9:09

I think what matters so that that awareness, and if you're asking the question, you know, what do I do about automatic thoughts? Then you are aware. Congratulations, you're aware. Like I know that I'm doing a certain thing because you hear people like us talk all the time. It's not that you're anxious, it's how you respond to that. It's not the thought that you have, it's how you respond to that. Correct. But my response is automatic. Once you can ask us that question and wonder about this, congratulations, you're aware. You the first step is there. Because there are people I think we can acknowledge, especially early on, they do not see a problem. Like, no, no, this is what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to fight the thought and like argue against it, or I'm supposed to run and get my ice pack out of the freezer right away. Like that's automatic. And yes, it's because it's what I'm supposed to do. But if you have gotten to the point where you're actually asking, well, how do I change that? Because it feels automatic, then you are aware. That's the first step. When I know I'm doing it, can I make a decision at that moment? Because you do have a choice, and this is a tough one because I think it's inherent in everything you hear us say. There is a moment when I am aware that I'm doing that, and now I have a choice to make. It's a tiny little moment, but there is a moment there where now I have a choice to make. Do I want to continue along this path? Does that get me closer to the life I want? Or do I want to change, you know, and and get closer to the life I want? So, what do I do in that moment?

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Oh, well, that was good. Uh 100%. Um, there is that moment, you know. Don't beat yourself up or listen to Greg the critic. Yeah, when you see things are automatic, it's frustrating, but you've got to understand your brain. As a result of habit, that's going to happen. Yeah. But when you step one are aware of it, oh look, I'm having an intrusive thought that I need to check all the plugs again. Yeah. No, that was automatic because at 8 p.m. every evening, that's what I've been doing for the past six months. But I've noticed that I'm having that thought, and the urge feels automatic, but there is a window, like Drew said, that's where it matters. Yeah. And it might even be just putting it off for 30 minutes, yeah, making it different. You know, listen to our episode on habits, neuropathways, etc. Um, but yeah, that that window is um is where all the good stuff happens.

SPEAKER_05 11:29

Yeah, how do I change that? And I think it's it's important that that being nice to yourself and patient, it is frustrating, but you're not failing because you did the automatic thing. I can't say that enough.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 11:42

That is not, and it doesn't mean that's all my recovery has gone backwards. We hear it all the time with people who maybe you're having a good stretch, which is great. Love it if you guys are having good days, of course. And then maybe their OCD OCD theme kicks back up again, or I haven't had a panic attack in two months and I had one today, and now I'm in a setback. It's that odd. Well, well, why do you think you're in a setback? Oh, because I was so afraid. Okay, okay, but that's automatic. Like that doesn't mean that your recovery just crumbled to nothing. You know, in fact, if you are aware that you reverted to the old habit, then congratulations, you're aware, and now you can do what you got to know.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

That awareness is so cool, isn't it? It's like when you feel helpless and you feel like you're not making progress, right? Yeah, that awareness is progress. That's exactly right. It's the effect might be the biggest part of progress. Yeah, just being aware of it is super cool. Like you've you've stepped out of the snow globe and you look back. I use this analogy months and months and months ago, but and you're looking in, that is step one. You need to see what you're doing there and do it compassionately as well, particularly if you're someone who struggles with you know orrid intrusive thoughts about violence and sex and stuff like that. They will be automatic because of habit. The thoughts don't mean anything about you, just be aware of them. I'm aware I'm having this really troublesome thought that is kick that is causing me discomfort. Yeah, you know, well done. Step one, you're aware of it. Don't start looking into the symbolism of what that intrusive thought means about you because that's rumination. We don't like rumination on this podcast, do we?

SPEAKER_05 13:16

No, we do not. It's our least favorite thing. And then you can't get stuck in that narrative of like, well, how do I stop that from happening? You don't. It's we're not trying to stop it from happening. So that leads you down that that rabbit hole that has no end where there's no good outcome for you because all you care about is I gotta stop getting into this state. Well, no, you have to you actually have to work on how you get out of that state. You don't have to stop getting into it, you have to just drive in a different direction when you're in it. So that's really important. I think that the fact that there is choice, I don't know how you what your thoughts on this, but I often get you know that sort of like dog shaking their head thing, like, wait, what are you saying here? Like, how could there be choice? What do you mean I have a choice? It's so cute when Strudel does that, right? Like that. I love that's one of the best things that dogs do. I don't think I understand you, so I'm just gonna tilt my head to the side when really I'm thinking I'm judging you hard, owner, but like, okay. Um, but I think it's that thing where I don't believe there's a choice because even if I'm aware, says the anxious person or the frightened person, it's okay to admit you're frightened. That's okay. We all get scared. I can't, how can I have a choice? I don't understand. Like it feels so important for me to continue to fight, to save myself, to avoid, to prove this thought wrong about my sexual orientation or whatever it happens to be. How can I have a choice to not do? I don't understand. There's no what choice do I have? How can I not do that?

SPEAKER_03 14:48

You've always got your choice to turn your back on it. Right. You know, um, and just go with the risk. You know, anxiety will always convince you that whatever the thought or situation is, it's high stakes. Yeah, if you're a fixator, you might be fixating on anything. The anxiety itself, the state of fear itself, maybe your relationship, maybe your job, your work. If you've got GAD, there could be a multitude of things. Um, but you've always got the choice to turn your back on it. Yeah, even if you have that, but deep down, you can turn your back on it.

SPEAKER_05 15:26

Yeah, you you mentioned the word risk. I think that's so important because when you decide, like, okay, this is, and this is all happens in milliseconds, but you know, there's an amazing amount of thinking that can happen in a half a second in the human brain. Like, this is that moment that you know Josh and Drew were talking about on the podcast. Here's my choice moment, but it feels so risky, it feels like such a risk.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

My leg's twitching, I've got a headache.

SPEAKER_05 15:48

The symptoms new, I can't turn my back on this. Or like, but this is thoughts about my kids. Of course, I should follow the rumination train for the next six hours and make myself crazy. That's important. My kids are important, so it's that emotion that comes along with it, where you get fused with the thought, is gonna try and no, no, no, no, no. You don't turn your back on this. This feels I can't tell the difference. I'm fused, so I can't tell the difference between thinking about danger and danger in this moment.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

What have you noticed automatic thoughts are always about air quotes, important things to you? Sure. So they'll always have some link to it. Yep. With either directly about your values or intricately linked to your values. Um, no one has intrusive thoughts about you know what, I did I get honey mustard mayonnaise instead of standard mayonnaise. No, because it's an inane thought, it doesn't mean anything. Right, you know, um but it's always about stuff like anxiety, um feeling vulnerable, uh catastrophe around the corner, death, collapsing, hearts exploding, not being there for your kids, something happening to your kids, something to do with your sexual orientation, something to do with breaking the law, losing control, throwing yourself off a bridge, fainting, going crazy, derealization, what's going on. It's always an automatic thought to do with something that's high stakes. And that's when another layer of metacognitive awareness you can do be like, ah, no wonder this feels automatic because my threat response, uh mate, amygdala, is going there, there, because it could be a threat.

SPEAKER_05 17:36

Yeah. Amydala. Love that guy. My friend, listen to that at night when it's just dark at 3 a.m. No. Because it's funny because then there's a bias, there's an intentional bias, too. So like I know when we have Rihanna on talking about MCT, she's gonna talk about this. I know. Like, because the thought is about a topic that is important to me, it speaks to my values, it speaks to my identity, whatever. There's an emotion that comes with that. And now I notice that thought more. So when, for instance, if you follow sports at all, oh let's talk about, you know, the Euros are going on right now, right? So, like England, good good job, you guys are in the semis, but like, oh, we're not playing well, we're not playing well. And I and I'm following a little bit. Josh is teaching me the game, it's cool. And like, oh, well, we should fire our manager because we play terrible football, says, says, you know, you're asking for a guy to lose his job, right? That's a pretty big deal. You're a good person. Like, I'm sure all these people are good people, but they want that guy fired because the team is playing boring, horrible football. But that thought doesn't threaten you. So you might think eight times a day on the day of a match that Garrett Southgate has to go. But so what? You might think that 10, 11, 12, 15 times, especially if the beer is flowing in the street, right? But if you think about harm coming to your kids, now you notice that one more. And that thought might come also 10, 15 times a day, but that one is important. So your brain is making thoughts that don't match you all day long, just that the ones that really don't match you get all your attention.

SPEAKER_03 19:04

That's potentially it's amplified, isn't it, by both the amegdula and Craig the critic. Absolutely. So when you've got thoughts about I don't know, your kids or being a parent or something that's valuable uh to you, yeah, you know, people, relationship, OCD, whatever. Yes, that thought is the same as I can't stand Garus Algate, whatever. But imagine stood there, and then suddenly out of the bushes comes Craig the critic with a megaphone.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

Craig the critic.

SPEAKER_03 19:33

And he puts it in front of your voice, and then the amygdala comes out and puts a megaphone in front of that megaphone. Yeah, the words are still the same, the thought is still the same, but it sounds way louder because you're having it amplified. But does that make it any more important because something's louder? Absolutely not. Um, it also reminds me of that scene from The Simpsons where Bart puts like 50 megaphones attached to each other, and then like a fly or something flies smashes every window in springfield.

SPEAKER_05 20:10

Yeah, that's really good. I love that, like just because listen, I mean, you guys can hear me on this microphone, I'm often the loudest guy in the room. What can I say? It just that's my voice. What can I say? It doesn't mean I'm automatically the right guy in the room or the most important guy. You know, it just happens to be that I'm a little louder than a lot of people. So that's super important. Loud doesn't mean important, but you know that in a lot of other things. You know that in politics or sports or things you like to debate about or disagree about, like, oh, he's you know, stop shouting. You're trying to shout me down with your opinion. You know that about that, but when it the thought comes from inside yourself, the loud thought must be the most important one because it comes from inside me.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Yeah, my brain is screaming this at me, so therefore it must be important, and then when it becomes important, that's when things can fall into the automatic realm. Yep, exactly. Uh particularly with and I want to bring uh come back to attention and focus again because for me, I was a massive checker. Um, and I think honestly, it was probably the worst part of my anxiety when panic disorder, OCD, everything comes together. I'm a checker. So I'd fixate and I'd check, and it was so automatic. I'm talking second after second after second after second, like relentless, and then I was then metacognitively aware I was doing it, but then I wasn't compassionate to myself, so I'm like, I can't stop this checking, I feel hopeless. It's it's even it's automatic. I check 30 times a minute. And then I was when I started being compassionate and be like, oh yeah, you've spotted that you're checking. Now let's try and reduce that checking a little bit at a time, and then you know, get the pom-poms out and start being our own little cheerleader for a bit.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

And then giving ourselves a pat on the back for the Amounts of time that we're going without checking and fostering this compassion, um, I started to get there. So instead of it being you know, every day, it was so automatic the checking. I actually didn't notice it, I just thought that was me existing. But when you really, really think about like just observe your brain all day and where your focus is going, it was if I had to put it on a pie chart, I would say about 50% of my entire waking day was internal checking how I was feeling. Um and it was that bad, I would dream, I would be dreaming, and I would check how I felt in the dream because the habit was so automatic. Yeah, uh, and I didn't realize how how prevalent it was because automatic checking. Don't get me wrong, and the thoughts were this automatic too. Waking up, automatic. How do I feel? This isn't gonna go away, I'm broken. What if I panic? What if I'm crazy? Whatever. Uh, but we always have control of our behavior, and that was the way out.

SPEAKER_05 23:12

Yeah, it's interesting because I think checking is a good example too. Like people ask me that all the time, but how do I how did Josh stop checking? How did you stop checking? Really and truly, I would argue that well, you didn't really stop checking, you just stopped rechecking. So when your brain asks the question, How am I? Yeah, you can't stop asking that question. I think people are like, but I need to stop the checking. No, no, no, no, no. When your brain asks, how am I doing? the answer is I don't know. Or I'm not answering that. We don't need to ask that question. Well, I stopped checking eventually, yes, but only because start stop rechecking first.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

Stop rechecking, yeah. Not not getting annoyed that I found myself checking, stopping rechecking and gently guiding my attention away to what non-anxious me might be doing at that time. Yes, it took practice, didn't take long, and it's you get on the I don't know if you ever had this drew, but you get on the like the you get the momentum going. Yes, yes, and I'm like, and then like a few days later, when you maybe I've had a lack lack of sleep and things are stressful at work, I might fall back into that automatic checking a bit more. That's where I've got to be super kind to myself. It's like, nope, my stress jug is full, so no wonder my threat response is a bit more gnarly and annoying today. Doesn't mean I'm failing. Craig the critic can shut up. I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing. Gently bring it away, gently bring it away. And yeah, and yeah, each time you do that, you rewire the brain. If you're a checker like me, that's the way I did it.

SPEAKER_05 24:45

Yeah, and I think what you're learning over time, these are general things. We because I know a lot of people, if you're listening, you say, Yeah, but what about when my automatic thing is this or that, my automatic behavior is that? Okay. So if you notice that you're doing it and you change that behavior, or you decide to walk away from the rumination, you still hear it, like it's still there, the thoughts are still there, the symptoms are still there, but I'm going to kind of zoom out from this problem, try and look around the edges of that problem. And what else can I see? And what else can I engage with? Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03 25:11

Yes, yes, that's what I, yeah, yeah, that's such a good way of putting it. That's what I did. Zoom out, what else is going on? Right. I'm not trying to get rid of it. Correct. What do what would I like to be more important? Yeah, is it what would I like to be more important than this?

SPEAKER_05 25:24

Yeah, exactly. And in that moment, if you think about that experience as like a painting on a wall, it's still the painting in the center of your view. That's true. Over time, it starts to move to the periphery and like it's still there. And really, what you're learning is not how to stop, you're just learning how to make that less important. And then over time, the automatic feels less automatic because it starts to calm down. And this is super important. It's not because you actually learn to answer the question that your brain is asking you, it's that you taught it that it never had to ask that question to begin with. So I think that's so important that people are just in that, like, okay, so what do I learned that I that it's okay to have a racing heart? No, you actually learned that you never had to ask about your racing heart to begin with. It's a moot point, the pointless question.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

Oh, that was yeah, I love I love that. Um, I was on a podcast the other day uh giving in an analogy and about like you can't stop things that are automatic, but you can teach the brain that you know they're just not important, particularly when you're thinking of of irritants or triggers. So like uh I use the analogy of being in the restaurant. Now this has actually happened to me back when I was really anxious, agrophobic many years ago, I'd sit in a restaurant and be really sensitive to the lights, the sounds, the clanging, the chatting, the laughing, the whatever. All the sounds of a busy restaurant. And now I've got scenes from a restaurant in my head by Billy Joel. Anyway, and uh great song. Yeah, it is a good song. And you sat there, but have you noticed like if you go into that restaurant already resisting and hoping that it's not gonna be loud and then people aren't gonna, you know, the music isn't blaring, and you're not gonna have someone laughing and dropping cutlery and stuff like that, it's gonna be a losing battle. And the fact that you don't want it to be loud is going to amplify the fact that the restaurant is going to be loud. How many times have you sat in a restaurant, or I've done this with a laptop and a coffee shop, where you have done nothing to affect those variables around you, right? And yet suddenly you are completely zoned in to talking to the person in front of you, right? Where actually all noise doesn't matter is dulled out. The music you don't even know what music's playing, but it's the volume's still the same. You're teaching the brain actually. I don't I don't mind, it's a restaurant. I can focus, my brain can focus on what I'd like it to do. And yeah, and I noticed that when I was in a restaurant many years ago. Like I've been chatting to my mate for an hour, and I've not even noticed all this. I was scared and it was amplified. Now it's not, but I didn't mess around with the variables, my brain just decided it wasn't important.

SPEAKER_05 28:17

That's so that's that's the key. That's one of the keys to me to recovery, is right there. I learn because I notice my automatic response or my automatic thought, I start to slowly change my response to it a little bit at a time, doing those little experiments, and I learn actually that I didn't have to keep checking how I felt wasn't really the most important thing in the room all day long, every day.

SPEAKER_03 28:41

Yeah, yeah. So the the the lesson of this is yeah, what are you doing in reaction to it? Uh let's look at some OCD heads. So, like let's say you've got OCD. I have a vocal thought, I can hear the thought telling me to do something in my head. Yeah. So let's say you're one of these people with OCD, like, I don't know, stab a loved one.

unknown 29:01

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

And that's automatic. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_05 29:04

Well, in that in that situation, like, yeah, that thought is disturbing. It's going to probably make you afraid or disturbed or worried, or it's going to put you in some sort of highly activated state. We expect it to do that. So when you notice that you are activated, now what should I do next? You might already be down the whole the rabbit hole of, like, no, I don't want to do that, or no, no, no, no, I can't hear you. Go away, go away. Happy thoughts, happy thoughts. You might already be doing that because it's the automatic response. But once you notice that you're in that activated state and doing the thing that you've been doing for months or years that hasn't really helped you, that's the moment when you have to figure, wait a minute, I'm doing that thing again, the automatic response to the automatic thought. Is this moving me closer to what I want? Or is it keeping me stuck far away from what I want? What can I do differently here? Even just a little bit. What can I try that's a little bit different right now? And spoiler alert, it's I'm not gonna fight this thought.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

Turn your back on it.

SPEAKER_05 30:02

Right. I'm gonna have to let it be there. And you might only be able to do that for a few seconds because it feels so dangerous, but that counts. That's a change.

SPEAKER_03 30:09

Yeah, or the one that I've often used in my books and stuff was the stolis of a client years ago. It was like, you know, I I went for a drive with my anxiety today, and it was making me do automatic things. But you know what? Instead of allowing it to sit up front, I just threw it in the back. It was allowed to come with me, but it's not up front messing with my dials and putting on its own music and stuff. No, it can just whine in the back because my focus is at the front. And because I'm driving and because I'm driven, I want to look after myself, I'm not gonna keep turning around looking at it, checking on it. Yeah, I know it's there, I can hear it, it's irritating, but I'm facing forward and I'm listening to my own radio station, and I was like, damn. Yeah, right. I love that. I was like, damn, that's good. That's really good.

SPEAKER_05 30:54

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's it is really good. So much of the automaticness, is that a word? I think I just invented that. Automaticness. It is now we make our own words. That's totally fine. Hello, Merriam Webster. Put it in there because we decided it's a word, but I think the automaticness kind of comes from the idea that it's the most important thing. So therefore, it's the only thing in your view for a minute. If you if you think about like physically viewing the world, sure, or just experiencing the world, whatever it happens to be like, suddenly in that second, you are zoomed right up to this thing, and it is the only thing you can see because it's right up against your eyes, your face. And so that makes it feel like this is automatic and irresistible, and I must follow it.

SPEAKER_03 31:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 31:38

That's why it feels that way. But what if you back away from it?

SPEAKER_03 31:41

Back away from it. Another one as well. If you're an automatic checker, I mean, how many people listening to this must always check for their anxiety? Not to see if it's there, to see if it's not there. Right. Right. And you check in, oh, it's not there. I'm happy. Check in, oh, it's not there, I'm happy. That automatic behavior is one you must stop. Because if you check to see if your anxiety is there, and then you're like delighted, yeah, because it's not there, what are you signaling to the brain?

SPEAKER_05 32:12

Well, we can't have it. It's I hope it doesn't come back. Make sure it doesn't come back. It's too I can't have that. It's not permissible.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

Yeah. Exactly. And so it makes it more important. That was a big one for me, too. Yep. Not only checking to see if the anxiety there, it was so automatic the behavior and the fear-driven behavior of anxiety itself, that I would check to see if it wasn't there, even when I was feeling great.

SPEAKER_04 32:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

Now if that's the most phobic behavior ever, even when you're feeling calm. Yeah. And it was automatic. I didn't need to do it. That was a big one in my recovery that noticing even when I was calm, I'm still checking for it. It's like, there ain't no monsters under the bed. Stop checking, Josh.

SPEAKER_05 32:52

That's B-I-G-G-U-N, by the way, big one for those following at home. I I I love that word. That was a big one. Yeah, it's a big one.

SPEAKER_03 32:59

You know, and it's funny because that's not some like derogatory term in America, isn't it? Sorry. No, no, it's not just like the accent.

SPEAKER_05 33:06

It's not even a thing where like, because that that leads to I'm anxious about not being anxious, or I'm having a pretty good stretch. I'm on vacation with my family, I'm not even really thinking about it. But what if it comes back? Like that feeds into that automatic checking feeds into like I'm anxious because I'm not anxious, and what if it comes back? So, like, you got to really be mindful of that for sure. I had that. I would have that. Like, uh, how am I doing now? I think a good rule of thumb with automatic checking is every human being at various points in their life will ask these questions. Am I dying? We will all ask that question at least once in our lives. Am I okay? That's the one we ask probably more. Am I going crazy? Like every human being will ask those. We just don't ask them 47 times 50 times a day. Right. Like, so what you're learning is like, oh, that's not a forbidden question. Like sometimes I will actually ask that question like everybody does, and it'll be appropriate. I just don't have to ask it continually. So even though the question is automatic, if I change my response to it, then the frequency of that asking starts to drop over time.

SPEAKER_03 34:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:13

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:15

Honestly, checking the automatic checking, the automatic behaviors, being aware of them, like Drew said, being happy that I'm aware of them.

SPEAKER_04 34:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

And changing them was honestly probably one of the biggest parts of my recovery. Yeah. You know, um, not only when triggered, but when not triggered.

SPEAKER_05 34:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 34:38

Yeah, yeah, I agree. So good deal. That was a great topic. That was a really good topic. Obviously, if we've not covered what you anxiety is a massive broad spectrum of things, and whether you've got OCD, panic disorder, agoraphobia. GAD. Oh, a quick word on GAD before we finish. GAD, what's automatic for people with GAD? Oh, rumination and warrior automatic. Yeah, straight away. Yep. Yep. I've got a moment to myself, not distracted. What's automatic? We go inwards. And if you've not listened to the inwards compulsion episode, this is you. It's like I've got nothing to do. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm 10 minutes here. What do I do? You've gone inwards.

SPEAKER_05 35:18

Was that that? Was the episode where we talked about the default mode network?

SPEAKER_03 35:22

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_05 35:23

The default mode network is one of the greatest things that come out of to me to come out of neuroscience, like that actually is a thing and is being replicated again and again. In the absence of something else to do, you will think about you. So will I. So will everybody listening. Like that is what human brains do.

SPEAKER_03 35:36

I think about me even when I'm doing stuff.

SPEAKER_05 35:38

Oh, that's a special skill. It's taking years. I told you I was a narcissist. Narcissism doesn't come by itself, man. That's great. Um, we go on to like some did it anyways? You got a written did anyway? Any questions?

SPEAKER_03 35:53

Oh, yeah, I've got a really cool written diet anyway. We've got uh we've got an audio one as well on a question. Yep. Um, but yeah, this is um time. I love this one. Hey Drew and Josh. Sorry, Josh, as a fellow Drew, our name goes first. Yes, fair enough. I wanted to share a bevy of did them anyways with you guys. The beginning of the year was rock bomb for me. Bed written, monophobia, constant body scanning, thrice fermented kimchi, the whole shebang.

SPEAKER_05 36:27

That is a loyal listener right there.

SPEAKER_03 36:29

The funny thing is, I've been there before. You've both spoke about techniqueifying Dr. Weeks, and I now realize that's exactly what I did about three years ago when I last suffered this kind of nervous breakdown. Fast forward to the day I'm writing this when disordered helped me with those missing pieces in my recovery. The shift in attitude, giving myself the credit, slamming the door in Craig the Critic's stupid face, these little details have filled in those blanks from last time. And in the last six months, I've locked down a full-time job that I love, renovated our kitchen pantry, flew to another state for a week by myself, and even climbed 20 feet or six meters into a tree to return a baby bird to its nest. This isn't like the last time I got better. Something is different, permanent. Thank you both so, so, so much for the wealth of knowledge you shared on Disordered. I'm hitting all the platforms I can think of and making it rain five-star reviews. Thank you. Uh now, as I enter the fine-tuning phase of my recovery, I was wondering, could you go into a little more detail about micro avoidances and macro avoidances? We sure will. We'll do an episode on it. I'd love to understand the distinction a little more. Uh, and to better recognize when I'm avoiding something versus when I just play and don't feel like doing something. Thank you from Drew. Awesome. I love that one. Really good. I love that. Bedwritten, monophobic, constant body scanning in thrice cemented kimchi to climb in birds, climbing birds, climbing trees to return a bird, to go flying to the different states to do another. Well done.

SPEAKER_05 38:17

Yeah, and I I dig how Drew like he layered all the concepts, you know. Our last episode was like, but what about? We talked about generalizing the principles. Boy, sounds like he got it. Right. So he was he was applying the principles as he got them.

SPEAKER_03 38:31

And look what listening to the principles and well done. And um, I'm glad you feel that sentence um sense of permanence as well. Yeah, we got any more?

SPEAKER_05 38:39

We do, we have an audio did it anyway. This is not a did it anyway, this is a doing it anyway. So let's check it out.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Hey guys, so I know we're always used to saying we're giving these we did it anyways, but I just wanted to send you this from my brother-in-law's wedding. This is the first event I've attended that's got about 300 people at it, and panicking all day and in my head and anxiety, you know, the usual. And it kind of hit me harder today, but I didn't did it, but I'm definitely doing it. And I'm here as much as I wanted to run, as much as I wanted to hide, I'm facing it, and I'm dealing with it, and it actually feels really great right now. And just wanted to say thank you so much for you guys for everything you've done on this year-long journey of trying to get myself back. I appreciate it, guys. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 39:34

Oh my goodness. Doing it anyway, that was really good. Lane, brother, congrats. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

Well done, Lane. What a nice guy. Um, you also left me a really lovely review of my book months back, and um I really appreciate that. What a really nice guy. Keep going, man, keep building on it.

SPEAKER_05 39:51

When is the last time you heard somebody say? I love that it was in the middle of it, too. You can hear the sounds of the wedding in the background and everything, you know, panicking, freaking out, wanting to run, and then in the same message, not 10 seconds later, and it feels really good. How's that for a paradox?

SPEAKER_03 40:07

Yeah, love it. That's the deal we got. You do chase that high at the end of it as well.

SPEAKER_05 40:13

At the end of that event, that's that superhero, like I'm a world beater now. So good, man. Um, we do have a question. Uh, we'll we'll see if we can answer this question. This came in this morning from Instagram. Thank you to the question sender inner. I don't want to use your name because you didn't say it could. Can you explain the difference between thought stopping slash controlling and distraction slash ABR? Anything but rumination. I have GAD and I get caught up between these two when working out what to do with my thoughts. Should I experience them or turn away from them?

SPEAKER_03 40:43

What do you think? Uh, I think you utilize your focus. So for me, it's a good question, but um, you utilize your focus. You never thought stop, that doesn't work. Right. So I immediately disregard thought stopping. You don't stop thoughts, but your thoughts will move on with your focus. If I stare at a tree and then suddenly stare at a rhinoceros, my thoughts are just gonna change in nature. Yeah, they really are. If I stare at a movie or I stare at a video game, my thoughts are gonna change in nature. When I stare at a loved one, you know, there's a lot of staring here, isn't there? There is stare at strangers in public, uh, my thoughts are gonna change. Your behavior and attention will change your thoughts. But if you're stop, you're in the freeze response and you're like, what do I do now? How can I fine-tune these thoughts? What do I need to do next? How can I how can I micromanage my own thoughts? Yeah, that's stopping, resisting, compulsing, and you're not going anywhere. So go with your attention. If it's inwards and you're doing the inwards compulsion, then any behavior within that inwards compulsion is not going to help.

SPEAKER_05 41:53

That's true. This is so typical gad. Like, should I what should I do with these thoughts? I have to evaluate the thought and see what I have to do with it. I will, should I experience them or try to turn away from them? If you are actually asking that question about a thought, what should I do with this thought? Then congratulations, you're already experiencing it. So you're good. Like, even if you turn away from it, the the assumption in that question would be that if I turn away from it, it goes away and therefore I'm not experiencing it. That's not true. I can turn away from it and it's still gonna be there. I don't know anybody who's developed a technique where they decide to go back to make a peanut butter sandwich and their intrusive thought just magically disappears. It's still there looking over your shoulder. So you will still experience it. You've already experienced it. Don't worry about that.

SPEAKER_03 42:33

Yeah, I've got the I've got the intrusive thought, I've got the thought, but I'm gonna try and give most of my attention to making a peanut butter sandwich. Yeah, you already because I can do both. That's that's the control. You can do both, even with the thoughts there. Yeah, exactly. Drop drop the resistance. All right, if the thought wants to be, that's fine, but I'm gonna focus on doing this as best as I can. And again, and stopping the checking that thought.

SPEAKER_05 42:57

The only thing I would add to that is there's maybe a misinterpretation of the word experience. I have to experience a thought as if you have to stop and sit and marinate in that thought to fall. If I don't do that, am I avoiding it? No, you're feeling it no matter what you do. So don't worry about that.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

Yeah, oh, that's so important, isn't it? If I stop and rest and I'm I'm not avoiding the no, no, you're gonna feel it anyway. It doesn't matter what your body's doing. You could be doing a headstand, you could be jogging, it don't matter.

SPEAKER_05 43:22

Not to like shamelessly cross-promote cross-promote podcasts, but last week's episode of my other podcast, The Anxious Truth, is about this. It's called you know, sitting with anxiety. Do you have to actually just stop and sit and letting it fully like go through all of your cells? No, not necessarily. How dare you promote your own stuff on this podcast? I have some nerve, don't I? Well, you're sitting there staring at all these crazy creepy things. I can promote my own podcast.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

You could promote all you want, dude.

SPEAKER_05 43:48

Promote all you want, man. Promote all you want.

SPEAKER_03 43:54

No, they've bought it. They know it. They know it. I tried. That's nice, very kind of you. It's fine. No worries. Uh it sold 12,000 copies in the UK, though. Thank you. Um, pretty good. Doing all right, right. Um, yeah, we'll see you next week for with a guest, Rhiannon, on where we talk about MCT for anxiety disorders. I'm really excited for it. I trained with Rhiannon personally at university as well. She's she's a good egg. I can't wait to hear what she has to say.

SPEAKER_05 44:21

I love having good eggs on the podcast, it always makes a better day.

SPEAKER_03 44:24

Yeah, instead of two rotten ones.

SPEAKER_05 44:25

Absolutely. Thanks for coming by, guys. If you have a minute, maybe go leave us a review somewhere or like a rating or something, especially if you're in the US, and we gotta trounce the Brits, take the lead. And uh anyway, if you want to send us voicemail or ask questions or send us an email, go to disorder.fm. Thanks for hanging out with us. We'll see you next week. See you later.