Anxiety and Flying w/Dr. David Carbonell (Episode 103)

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Flying is inherently uncomfortable for pretty much the entire population. The interesting thing is for the great majority of flyers, the anticipation is the worst part. Because in that last 30 seconds, all that's going on in their minds is, should I stay or should I go? Should I stay or should I go? Throw a blanket over my head and take me to the airport without letting me know where we're going. That would be better.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Almost every person I speak to and work with says, actually, that wasn't as bad as I thought it was, and my anxiety is now calming down, even though I'm in the air.

SPEAKER_03 0:33

I haven't charged the cockpit and made a scene. I haven't had a heart attack, and my head hasn't exploded. I'm not experiencing or doing any of those horrible things I thought was going to happen. And their anticipation was so bad that practically any kind of flight is going to be better than what they anticipated.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 103 of the podcast. And today we're going to talk about anxiety and flying, fear of flying, or anxiety over flying, uh, with a special guest that we'll introduce in a little bit. Uh, I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist that practices in the specialization of anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York, in the US of A, former sufferer of anxiety disorders and depression and OCD for many years of my life on and off, uh, an author on the topic, social media guy, educator, advocate, co-host of this podcast, Dude with an expensive microphone.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

And I'm joined as always by I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, like Drew, therapist, expert in anxiety and anxiety disorders, previous sufferer, author, and I'm really excited to have Dave on the show today.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yeah, we got Dave Carbonell, who is not only like a little bit of a legend in the anxiety disorder world, but he kind of has a niche there with the whole intersection of flying and anxiety. He has a really great workbook that both of us would highly recommend. And he's decided to come on and talk to us about anxiety and flying and you know the specialness. But but a flight, but a flight, man, it's too much. We're gonna talk about that with Dave.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Yeah, and I love how um he talks about hopefully he talks about that today, of the all the core fears of everyone who with flying anxiety and usually linking to losing control.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Yeah, I think if you feel like even whether you're at the beginning of the recovery process and you're thinking there's no way in the universe I'm ever gonna be able to fly, that's gonna be off limits for the rest of my life, or you're like 90% there, and flying is that one thing that you still think you can't do, this should be pretty good. So I guess we'll bring them on. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 2:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

All right, let's do it. Here we go. Okay, as promised, we have the esteemed David Carbonell with us. Talk about flying and anxiety and how those two things meet. Hello, Dave. Welcome. Hello, hello, thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah, thanks for coming on. Josh, what are we thinking about the flying thing?

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Flying, yeah, of course. It's something that um I don't personally like very much. Um I have a combination of you know, claustrophobia and acrophobia, you know, being enclosed, uh feeling enclosed and uh in high spaces. It's really common amongst the the community, um, particularly people with anxiety disorders, because there's a feeling of being trapped. Um I'm so glad that we've got Dave on the on the uh podcast today. Um because it's the only book I've read on flying anxiety that actually explains what the majority of the fear is for people. A lot of people with flying anxiety in this community don't necessarily think the plane's gonna explode. They might have that, but the priority fear is how I'm gonna feel when I'm air quotes trapped in a in a plane. So yeah, there's no better person to have uh on that today. Uh where where would you start, Dave?

SPEAKER_03 3:42

Well, I I'd start by by pointing out uh flying is inherently uncomfortable for pretty much the entire population. Uh if you if you go to an airline website and look and see, well, what do they got today? They all their flights will take you somewhere. Nobody gets on a flight, and well, let's just fly around for a couple of hours for the enjoyment of it. Uh, there's no Sunday afternoon drive in history with flying. Uh, flying's not all that comfortable and enjoyable. People would rather do other things. So uh I think everybody who struggles with intense anxiety about flying uh can benefit from recognizing nobody does it for the fun. Uh it's something we put up with at best. Yeah, because we can travel farther faster, but but nobody does it for the enjoyment.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

That's me 100%. Like I'll do it if I have to, but like really I can tell you.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

Yeah, yeah, why why would you do it for fun? Uh you know, just not gonna happen. So that that said, uh people with ang with uh anxiety about close situations, claustrophobia, heights, uh uh being in a room with a lot of strangers, um, they're naturally gonna have uh anticipation ahead of time uh about their discomfort. Um and the the interesting thing is for the great majority of flyers, uh the anticipation is the worst part. Uh and the toughest time for them is while they're sitting there with, you know, maybe 30 seconds to go, waiting to hear that the door is closed. Uh, because in that last 30 seconds, all that's going on in their minds is should I stay or should I go? Should I stay or should I go? 10 seconds left to make up my that that's the highlight for a lot of people, the most intense anxiety. And and once they close the door and people hate to hear that sound, uh, and and they they have a rush of adrenaline at that point. But for a lot of people, anxious people with flying, at least they have the benefit then of being able to say, uh, well, okay, uh uh now I just have to go along with it. Whereas before they they were pressuring themselves to make a good, useful decision, and they had so much trouble deciding.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Yeah, that's a really good point, I think. Because like every anxious person, you know, in my past experience when I was struggling, it was always the waffling back and forth. Can I do this? Can I not do this? Forget flying, anything walking around the block, go to the mailbox, like picking up my kid from school. Can I do this? Can I not do this? The waffling, the waffling. And it felt like flying was even higher stakes. Because uh picking up my kid from school, like I I guess I could turn the car around, go home, and see if a friend can take them home. Well, when the door closes on that aircraft.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Yeah, it it's similar in that respect, probably most similar to public speaking. Um I I could still I could still run out the door and get the heck out of here, but once they introduce me, now I'm committed, you know. Now everybody can see me. Yeah, it's all over. Yeah. So it it's useful for people to review their history uh with flying and and consider that question. Where's the high point of my anxiety? Uh, because I I think for most people it is the anticipation rather than what actually happens on the airplane. And if that's the case for you, uh the high point of the anxiety for me is uh just before we take off. Well, then maybe my interests are best served by let's get this over with, let's move that flight up if I have some options. Uh let's not stall, let's not postpone, because that's just extending the time when I have to struggle with this really unpleasant anxiety. Uh and I and I think for most people that that is kind of the case, that uh their worst time is beforehand. The night before, they have trouble sleeping, uh, they're they're crabby and cranky, and then they have all these terrible thoughts running through their head. Uh and and people will say, you know, if somebody, if, if my spouse or somebody would just um make all the arrangements and come by and and uh throw a blanket over my head and take me to the airport without letting me know where we're going, that would be better because I because I wouldn't be having the anticipations.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

That is so true.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

That is so true.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

I go to the airport in an unmarked FBI van after being clubbed on the head. That would be better, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Yeah, I would take I would take that to be honest. Um it's interesting as well because often almost every person who does their exposure, does the brave thing, finally gets on a plane, they always sort of say the similar thing. When when the when the plane evens out in the air after takeoff, after all that anticipation, they suddenly seem a bit calmer. You know, the the the fear that their brain has suggested to them for all this time, and actually the moment the plane kind of evens out after takeoff, almost every person I speak to and work with say says, actually, that wasn't as bad as I thought it was, and my anxiety's now calming down, even though I'm in the air. What's all that about?

SPEAKER_03 8:43

Well, that that is about uh that moment when when they realize, uh, well, gosh, we're up in the air. Uh, I I got here. Um, I haven't charged the cockpit and made a scene, I haven't had a heart attack, and my head hasn't exploded. Uh, I'm not ranting and rhyme, I'm not experiencing or doing any of those horrible things I thought was going to happen. And and their anticipation was so bad that that practically any kind of flight is going to be better than what they anticipated. Uh I think that that's exactly happened. My my worst fears, my fears have not been realized.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Yeah, yeah. Because we often hear that, don't we? Like, um, and it was a big fear for me. Like, what if my anxiety makes me go crazy or lose control? Um, what if you get so much that I can't handle it and start behaving erratically? I think that's one of the main fears I hear from this community. Is that something you hear a lot, Dave?

SPEAKER_03 9:39

Yes, yeah. Um, uh this terrible loss of control. Uh, that they take the fact that they're so anxious now uh to be a prediction of gee, if I'm this anxious now, how much worse is it going to be when I'm actually on the flight? Even though when they review their history, they can see it's it's typically the reverse. Uh, my worst anxiety is ahead of time.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

But they're they're expecting, they're having these fears of uh, you know, what if I act out in some terrible way? What if I lose control of my behavior? What if I lose control of my body? Uh I have some kind of terrible calamity. And and so something I want to do with with people who have those fears, and that's the majority of fearful flyers, they're not afraid of the plane going out of control, they're afraid of themselves going out of control. Uh, I want to review with them their history. Uh, what's been the most out-of-control thing you've ever done on an airplane? Or even more broadly, you know, for for most people, I'm gonna inquire what's the most out of control thing you've done in your lifetime? And then there's a silence. Uh, there's certain, you know, there's searching. Well, I got it here somewhere. Give me a minute, Dave. Uh it's in the style code D for death, no, F for fainting, no, D for going, uh, and they they can't find anything in their history. So they think, oh, this is an easy question. Uh that they search and search and they realize, well, one time I almost, and and several times it it came so close. Uh, what's what's the worst thing that that panic did to you on a plane? Uh ultimately they come up with, well, it made me really afraid. Uh that's pretty much it.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Yeah, I'm afraid it's such a powerful statement, I think, for people in our community. Like, it's okay to acknowledge that's what's happening right now. I'm afraid. Like, can we land there? But I love the almost. Well, it was that one time I almost there's that reliance on almost, and and often I'll have to challenge with like, well, what do you mean you almost? How do you know? You know, what does almost you know, having a meltdown mean?

SPEAKER_03 11:47

Yeah, yeah. And and uh how did the other other people uh uh across the aisle, front and back of your your seats, uh how did they respond to your almost losing control? How did they respond to what you did? Well, they didn't seem to notice. Yeah, they well, what kind of out of control is this that's imperceptible?

SPEAKER_00 12:09

That's that's such a good point. It's a special kind of out of control. I I think people think uh also like they can look. I love what was the most out of control in the rest of your life. But we it's so hard for anxious people to generalize. Like, even somebody who's further along the the road to recovery state from say panic disorder or agoraphobia, they've been going through the peak of panic and anxiety again and again and again. But like a plane is different, though. You don't understand. I can't generalize that to flying because this one is gonna last six hours. They don't under like, yeah, but I I can relate to that a lot as well.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

I've definitely had that thought process. The plane is special, there's something special about this situation. Yeah, I may have tolerated my anxiety in other situations, but the plane's special. There's something magic about that tube that will make me go crazy. I can relate to that, yeah, but actually it's not special. No, I well, I'm not the safer form of transport, you know. But yeah, it's yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:06

What what's maybe modestly special about it is you know ahead of time for three hours for six hours, whatever, I know where I will be. Uh, and that's where I'm going to be. Now I might I might stay home today and and and spend eight hours in my living room. I'm not particularly thinking about that ahead of time. And I may move around and say, I'm just not thinking about what space will I occupy today uh with an airplane. I have an appointment, I'm gonna be there. Uh, and they they they have this sense um uh I'm trapped, I I can't escape. And we'll spend a little time talking about what what a trap really is. Uh a trap is a circumstance that you lure someone or or typically an animal, uh, you you lure them into it because you want to harm them. That that's what a trap is. We want the pelt, we want the meat, we want something. Uh, if you have to buy a ticket, that's a good indication it's not a trap. Uh uh because you know, try try and stay on. I'll say this to people try and stay on the airplane when it lands uh and see what happens. Uh, then we'll find out what kind of trap this is. They will actually insist that you leave. Uh you're not going to be able to stay there beyond your time. Um so I want people to take a look at this notion of trap and realize, well, what I have is discomfort. What I have is the inconvenience. What I have is all the stuff that everybody dislikes about flying. I got to stay here, and I can't have my favorite foods, and I can't have access to some of my toys, and so on. Um, what's the reason I have to stay on the airplane? Well, it's the safest place I can be right now. It's just not a good idea to go outdoors until we land. That's the only reason you gotta stay there.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

It's not a good idea to go outdoors until we land. They should put that in a little safety speech in the beginning of the flight. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:21

I don't know why it's not there.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Yeah, we urge you to stay in the aircraft at all times. It'll be such a better day. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

But it's tricky as well, though, because uh I remember reading your book, David, like you do mentioned the charging the cockpit thing. Uh what I took from that is that you're speaking to people's fear of losing control, as you said. Yes. I like how that some people genuinely feel that, don't they?

SPEAKER_03 15:45

Like they oh, surprisingly common. Yeah, you know, they're they're afraid, they'll get so upset, feel so agitated as to look, you know, to do something desperate. Uh to charge the cockpit to start kicking at a door or window and you know getting duct taped to a chair and turning up on the six o'clock news in their hometown at the end of the day. Uh, terrible, terrible fears. Um, when I was doing uh uh um in-person classes, we we would go flying together. Uh one one of the things I would do is I'd uh ask one person in the group who who seemed to most be preoccupied with those fears of losing control and causing a disruption. I I'd ask them sometime during the flight, yeah, you want to do an experiment? Yeah, sure, sure. Uh push the call button and ask the flight attendant for a little packet of sugar. Well, but but Dave, I'm not drinking any coffee. Well, that's all right. You're entitled to a bag of sugar. You you paid a lot for this flight. Push the call button and ask for a, you know, I don't want to do that, Dave. And and people are are very open to doing the experiments. That's how we do a lot of this work. I'd like you to try this experiment. This experiment they never want to do. Well, come on now, do the experiment, please. No, no, no, Dave. I'm that's it. I'm not I'm not gonna ask for the sugar. Uh, and then we can have a conversation about this. Uh, if you're so resistant to pushing the call button and asking for a bag of sugar that you're perfectly entitled to, how much less likely are you to go charging into the cockpit and grabbing the controls away from the captain? Right?

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Oh, that's really good. I can't even bring myself to inconvenience, you know, the cabin crew. Really? Uh, another common one that I hear is people who are genuinely concerned that they are gonna run to the door and try to open the door of the aircraft while it's 35,000 feet in the air, they're convinced that that's a possibility. Yes, you know, or the the the air marshals will wind up. I'm gonna wind up in the aisle with two burly air marshals kneeling on me like because I can't be constrained and I'm just gonna be so out of control.

SPEAKER_03 17:54

Yeah, yeah. And and you know what? Uh, a couple of times a year here here in the States, uh, there's a story. It you know, it's it's often on the news. Uh, somebody did uh get disruptive and and and start uh trying to open a door, you know, causing trouble, urinating on the seats, doing, you know, God knows what. Um, and and everybody in in America with panic disorder watches this thing and thinks, oh my god, I'm the next one. Yeah. So you know, what if it happens to me? And and they uh so unfortunately take this to be another instance of somebody with panic disorder running amok when it's somebody with some very different kind of problems.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Yeah, for sure. I like to think of it as uh and people don't get this, and you only get it afterwards. Uh being just trapped, stuck, I would you know, I would say constrained or or stuck. You you are stuck in the aircraft, that's true. You can't get off while it's flying. But it's not the ultimate or it's not people say it as it's as the ultimate thing that will will actually break me. Like it will push the anxiety into that red zone that nothing else can push it into, and that will drive me into an out of control, inconsolable, like uncontrollable state. But really, it's actually the ultimate drop down on anxiety and showing you its limits. Like you cannot be in an out-of-control, freaking out state for six hours between New York and LA. So in the end, when they look back at the experience, it's always like, oh, well, you know, I yeah, I had some anxious moments come and go during the flight, but I did not sustain this level of like uh entire terror that they're they expect that they will be in for six full hours on the flight. It it shows it actually is an illustration of the limitation. You know, it'll come in ebb and flow, maybe, but no one panics for six hours on a flight across the country. Nobody.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

Sure, and and and that's that's why looking at their history can can be so helpful.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

Um, now sometimes uh if you ask people, uh, well, to what do you attribute your failure to act out, to lose control, to uh, you know, cause a scene, to have a heart attack, whatever, to what do you attribute your failure to have these things? Sometimes they got some answers, and and we want to deal with those answers. They'll have answers like, uh, well, I brought my spouse with me. Uh, well, I I I I tried really hard to distract myself. Uh well, I I closed my eyes and pretended I was in my living room. Uh, they'll have a number of uh factors to which they attribute, how come I got away with it this time? Uh which just increases their concern and doubt that, oh, what if I can't make that thing work next time? Uh so we want to try and have people experience that flight uh while leaving behind all of those what we would call safety behaviors, though those protective devices, the the distraction, the the lucky sweater, uh the extra water bottle, whatever they bring along uh that they think is going to save them, to the extent that they believe they did save them, they're gonna get less benefit from the exposure.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Yeah, we call that on this podcast not getting the credit. It wasn't those magic objects. Right.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

And the best way is to do that is to not bring them, uh, or you know, one at a time phase them out.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Yeah. So what Dave's saying is if you're going on a holiday with your loved one, kick them off the plane before the plane door shuts because it's all about your exposure.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

Or at least uh at least put them up in first class and you can stay back in.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Oh no, I'm I'm taking the first class seat. I'm sorry. I mean that's just the way it's gonna have to be. Or you know, I guess it would be irresponsible of me to not point out if you have to have I'm wearing earbuds as we record, gotta bring your earbuds because you have to listen to disordered or listen to Josh's audiobook or Drew's audiobooks or one of Dave's books. No, like we would that's one of those things we would urge you like, no, you don't have. To listen to a podcast to calm yourself down and keep yourself from going out of control. Like go ahead and go out of control. Go ahead. Like see what happens. And you never do. Nonetheless, it feels like it's so no, but I don't you don't understand. In that moment, it just feels like I can't do it. I can't take the leap of faith. How do you respond to that, Dave?

SPEAKER_03 22:18

When you're working with people, uh well, if unless this is their first flight that we're talking about, I I can go back again to their previous history with flying. Uh, what's the most out-of-control thing you did on any of those other flights? Um and most of the time that's what I use because rarely do I see a client who's never flown before. Uh, most people who become afraid of flying uh had a history of flying before they became afraid. Uh they flew for a few times with family when when they were youngster, when they were a teenager. Uh, maybe maybe they flew to interview at some colleges. Uh sometime in their their 20s or 30s, stuff happened. One day they had a bad fight and it never seemed the same again. But they had a history of flying before that. Uh, so I'm gonna I'm gonna look at them at that history with them, and they're gonna see, well, as many times as I've thought I was gonna end in disaster, uh, my disaster uh score has been zero percent. Zero percent of the time has that happened. Now, if somebody has had an actual bad episode on the flight, well, that's another matter, and we got to talk about that. Uh, rarely do I find that that's the case. Um, so what we do find is uh they tend to think of the fear and the panic as as the enemy, as something that they have to oppose. Uh, and and so that's what brings them to you know the traditional fight or flight. I either have to cancel the trip, I have to struggle against my anxiety, I have to sedate myself with with medication and alcohol, uh, I have to get into a struggle to not be afraid. And and that's the formula for for chronic panic disorder. Uh, I'm trying not to be afraid, and then I want to help them get to the point where they see, well, it's okay to be afraid on a flight. Uh uh because what's my job on the flight? I'm a passenger. I'm a I'm a passenger on the airplane. Now we don't want the captain to be afraid. Uh, we don't want the crew to be afraid. As a passenger, it's perfectly fine to be afraid. Uh no, you know nothing, nobody's counting on you to be calm. Uh when you go through the the TSA, they're gonna scan your shoes, they're not gonna scan your soul. Uh, this is a come as you are party, and and you can fly when you're happy, you can fly when you're sad, when you're angry, when you're afraid, whatever. Uh, 17A, there's your seat. Welcome aboard our airplane. Uh, and so it's really important to help people get into that mode of working with the anxiety and not against it.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

I I see the pilot holding one of Dave's books as we're walking on. I'm I'm walking off.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Uh how to overcome your fear of flying as the pilot. Yeah, that would that would be uh terrible.

SPEAKER_03 25:14

You know, interesting. I've I've worked with a couple of pilots who were afraid of flying uh when they had to fly on somebody else's aircraft.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Really?

SPEAKER_03 25:24

They're not in control. Well, yeah, yeah, they they fly what they call deadhead. You know, they're flying in an uh an available seat to get to their NASDAQ's flying destination. And oh, you know, sitting back here, I don't know the pilot. I feel kind of ootsy about this. Yeah, they they did not like it when others were flying the plane.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

So interesting. Even pilots. Yep. Yeah, I love this. Yeah, I can relate to it though, because what back when I was ag agoraphobic, yeah, I overcame driving anxiety, but it's a different type of anxiety when someone else is behind the wheel and you just got to sit there as a passenger. Right. I used to avoid that quite even now. I still don't fully like it, you know. And there's something about that, yeah. Like it's so weird.

SPEAKER_03 26:09

Yeah, a couple of things about it. You know, that there's the issue of trust. I don't know that they're doing a good job. There's the issue of communication, they don't seem to be coming back and letting me know how things are going. Um, there's the issue of uh I'm a passenger, I don't really have anything to do. My mind is more likely to wander when I have nothing to do. Uh, so there's a number of ways in which being a passenger uh can be challenging. And if you get the idea that the way to be a good passenger is to fight off the fear uh that that's setting you up for trouble.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

I think that's one of the biggest things for people to maybe put their mind around. You're gonna get in an aircraft and fly for however many hours, and like, no, no, yes, you're right. You might get bored, your your mind is gonna wander, your anxious fears are gonna kick in and start to like have a conversation with you. Like, and you can't, there's nothing you can do to get away from that. There's not I can't get up, I can't leave, I can't go for a ride, I can't go to the mall, I I can't play my video games. And I think it's very difficult for them to feel like, but I'm just gonna have to sit there and feel those things, maybe repeatedly.

SPEAKER_03 27:15

Yeah, so um that would be troublesome. So I want to give them something else to do, uh, so that they don't just have to sit there and and and fear it and tolerate it. Uh, I'm gonna ask them to engage in a bunch of tasks that involve becoming a better observer of their anxiety on the aircraft. Uh now most people are gonna arrive with the idea uh that distraction is a good thing to do. I'll I'll bring several books, some videos, some games. Uh, I love flying with my little kids because they cry and whine and I have to, you know, they draw attention from me. Uh, they have the idea I got to distract myself. Um, and this this too is problematic because it it creates this fiction of the the thing that saved me from having a uh a heart attack or or causing a disruption on the plane, um was that I was singing a happy tune to myself. I'm not sure that that's really uh what happens here. Uh so I want to ask them this question for starters. If if distraction is the solution, if I'm motivated to distract myself, what does that tell me about the problem that I'm facing? And and what they're gonna come to see is that, well, uh I guess what it tells me really is the chips are not down. If a big pit bull comes charging at me down the street, I don't start singing a happy song. Uh I look for a stick to swing or a fence to climb. I'm yelling for help. Uh I'm not at all uh distracting myself from that dog. I am focused like a laser on that dog. And when I'm motivated to distract, that's a good reminder to me. If I can take it, the chips are not down right now. That's why I'm just I'm I'm trying to distract at all. The the coast is clear. I can go into my mind and and play play with my thoughts as long as I need to.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:10

Uh so I want to help them come to see. Distraction's not really a useful tool for you here. Uh, what you resist will persist. And so we need to do the opposite of resisting.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Yeah. So the activity they might engage with is actually uh watching their thoughts, watching their body makes decisions, like at least at first.

SPEAKER_03 29:31

Uh yes, yeah, uh watching them uh and taking notes about it. Uh so for instance, when we do the class, I I ask people um to uh uh uh graph their anxiety level at 10 minute intervals, starting in the gate, uh gate to gate, every 10 minutes, they're they're on a zero to a hundred scale, they're they're marking their anxiety level. Uh I've asked them to prepare ahead of time a list of all the symptoms that they expect to experience, the panic symptoms on on board the airplane, uh broken into the categories of all the scary thoughts I'm having, uh all the um difficult physical symptoms that I experience, the heart racing and the sweating and so on, uh all the negative emotions that I experience, uh, and all the frightened behaviors that I experience. So the holding my breath, the closing my eyes, the gripping the armrest, uh, so they get a good inventory of all these symptoms. Put them on a spreadsheet. Uh, and what I'd like for you to do, client, is uh throughout the flight, each time you have one of these symptoms, first thing I want you to do is go to your spreadsheet and put another hash mark. Uh, you're gonna keep a simple frequency count of how many times you have each one of these symptoms. Uh, and so we're using here, we we're not really all that interested in what the total number is. We're using counting as a proxy for acceptance. Up, there's that thought again. Okay, I can have that thought. Um there's me feeling a bead of sweat on my palms. Okay, I can fly with sweaty palms. The captain, we don't want the captain to have sweaty palms. His hands might slip off the wheel. The passenger.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Leslie Nielsen up in that. Oh, yeah. Robert Hayes, the sweaty guy.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

So they're they're gonna, uh, the more they can be in the role of observer, the less available they are to feel like they're in the role of victim. These are opposite uh ends of the spectrum. The the more you're observing, the less available you are to feel victimized, and vice versa. The more you're feeling victimized, the less available you are to be an observer. And an observer is gonna allow them to feel better and be more accepting of the flight experience. So uh it's quite surprising to people when they hear, gee, I want you to pay attention to your anxiety level. I want you to write these things down, I want you to write these symptoms down, keep them, keep count of them. Um uh it's a reminder of how unhelpful the process of distraction can be that this actually helps people.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

It's it's almost like a curiosity, isn't it? Like it's empowering. Like, no, my homework here is to be curious about how I feel, not resist it. Yeah, and yeah, I love that. You you set up your role as not being the victim on the plane. No, this is your job, this is your homework, you know, see what you see, and but knowing you're safe. You know, you're safe, anxiety can hit you, and you're safe, you're supposed to feel anxious. That's the whole thing. I think a lot of people, and I did this for years, you know, I used to self-medicate and things, and wondered why my anxiety on planes got worse. Is that I lost the the will the willingness to be curious on a plane because I just didn't want to feel that fright or that fear. Um, and yeah, I just think I think it's really interesting. I wanted to ask you there was a great word.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

I'm I'm so glad you brought that up. Um uh that that's a wonderful asset to people in flying or any kind of a phobic situation. Uh curiosity, it's the opposite end of the spectrum of I know what's gonna happen and it's gonna be bad.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yeah, or I know it's gonna happen because I'm afraid to do this. So I fully expect my body and my mind to do afraid person things. And like this is actually happening. And I think so much of it you say curiosity as a substitute or observing or tally marks as a as a proxy for acceptance. Because this is happening, and so much of it is uh, I gotta get away from this. I want to deny that this is happening, I want to deny that I'm afraid, I want to deny that I feel like I want to cry or shake or I want to tap my cheek, but like, no, no, no, this is actually happening, so let's watch it happen first and foremost. Because we expected it to happen. This isn't news, we knew this was gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 34:03

Yeah, and and the more uh we we provide give permission to have that experience, yeah, the less cumbersome and and and threatening it becomes.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Yeah, absolutely. Uh what would you say, Dave, in response? So I've got clients in the past um we build up exposure therapy, exposure ladders, you know, to get on a plane and stuff for the people who fear being trapped for the claustrophobic and and afraid of heights and stuff. Um would you say it's okay to in you know to encourage people? I mean, I for some people I get them to start on trains and then Ferris wheels and then cable cars are my favorite. I always Google where the nearest cable car is for people. Because if you want to replicate the experience of being trapped in the in the air, then I go, you know, tell them to go in the cable car. And actually, more often than not, you you see what the fear is. They look at the cable car and go, I'm trapped, I can't get out, and I'm high above the ground. Uh, is that something you would encourage, Dave, or do you say just run on the plane?

SPEAKER_03 35:06

Uh no, I I think um well, I I like to see the client proceed as as rapidly with exposure as as they're willing. Uh, and conversely, uh you know, it's okay to go at as slow a rate as you feel necessary. So step at a time uh is perfectly fine. And yeah, I do the same thing with with trains here in Chicago. Um, we have a uh the Museum of Science and History uh Museum here in Chicago. They have a coal mine exhibit. You can get down and you know be simulated into being a coal mine. They have a an old uh German submarine from World War II. Uh these are great proxies to go into. Oh wow. So I I I think uh you know, we're whatever you have to do to begin to experience some of the anxiety anxiety and have a chance to practice with it. Uh, sure, let's do that and make it a step at a time. Nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Well, you we're both in tall building uh areas too, like in New York and Chicago. So, you know, being on the 80th floor of a really tall building, it's not the same as a plane, and forget the height part. It takes you a while to get down 80 floors. Whether it's an elevator or something, you cannot just run out the ground floor of that building and and be a you know away from your thoughts. It's gonna take you a while in that elevator to get down there. So that's another possible exposure. But we're also in two tragically flat places, so we don't have cable cars. Where would there be a cable car? And like there's no Alps in Chicago or on Long Island.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

So tragically flat over there. You can't go 10 minutes to 10 seconds in the UK without uh climbing some kind of gradient. That's why all our thighs and calves are enormous.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

I'm in glacial outwash land, everything just got scrubbed flat on Long Island, so it is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

Um Dave, where can people find out more about your work? I mean, I we endorse the book, the Fear of Flying Workbook, I think it's called, is is an excellent book. And I always refer it to clients. But where can people find out more about what you do?

SPEAKER_03 37:13

Uh the best place to go is is my website, anxietycoach.com. Uh, they'll find the the books there and and a whole wealth of uh self-help material for all the anxiety disorders. Yeah, so that that's that's where I hang out on the internet.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

If you guys go to disorder.fm slash this is 103. So disorder.fm slash 103, I'll put all Dave links in the show notes there so you can find all of the stuff. And uh what a great conversation. You're welcome back to me anytime, right? Thanks, Dave. And you may thanks for making me laugh as well. 100%. But I am gonna start working on a soul scanner because airports need that, and I'm gonna make a ton of money if I can invent it. So that was really great.

SPEAKER_03 37:53

Yeah, you know, I there were I remember a time we had another live group, and there were a couple of people that there's always a couple of people in the group who were really concerned that you know, what if I uh start looking nervous when I approach the TSA, uh, and they they think there's something wrong with me, and they they bring me off to a private room for scrutiny and so on. These these two women approach the TSA station and they they just burst into tears. And then this this was their worst, worst possible fear. And and the man says to them, uh, what's what's the trouble, ladies? And they explained that they were going on a fear of flying practice flight today. And he said, Oh, okay, have a good flight.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

All they had to do was own up to it and it disappeared. I think most threats to national security don't present as that, you know, like just fight themselves with fear, generally speaking.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

I'm I'm I'm I'm on a fear of flying uh exposure today. Uh, I may charge the cockpit, even though I have no history of it. And actually, I've got social anxiety and really care about what you think. As soon as that plane hits the runway, I turn into a menace.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

And please don't look at me. Please don't look at me.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Thank you. This was really so great. I think the biggest takeaway would be, and and we'll come back and wrap it up when we're done, I guess. But like the plane isn't special, I promise. Like, you can handle that too, right? In the end, and that's what we're learning. And you notice the themes you hear on this podcast all the time are even here on a plane with Dave Carbonell.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

So, like you gotta be somewhere for those four hours, and that's just as good as any place else. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

All right, guys.

SPEAKER_03 39:31

Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

You're very welcome. Yeah, I I really, no joke, do want to invent a soul scanning machine. That was my favorite, that was my favorite quote in that interview. The machine scans your luggage, not your soul.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

We should make some um disordered branded duct tape for your flying exposures. So even though it's against the principles of the podcast, just having all this really bright duct tape that you take on the plane with you and say to this the steward, uh, if I lose control, can you just duct tape me with this specific branded of duct tape? We would probably sell so many, we'd probably have to split it with Dave. We'd have to do that. There'll be one person on every flight. Just this is not even taken off yet. Just like duct tape can't move. You know, these are the duct tapes over the eyes.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Just like oh my goodness, disordered flying anxiety duct tape. How have we not already made this? I don't I don't know why, but no, uh love having Dave on.

SPEAKER_02 40:32

Uh he was brilliant. He was a guest on the Planet Pod many years ago, and um yeah, he's still got his humor, and um, yeah, it's really good when we get guests like that on.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

What do you think was the biggest takeaway for you listening to him talk about this? Um, I think it's the curiosity and about not feeling or viewing yourself as the victim when you are doing an anxious exposure. Yeah, reframe it, go in, actually. No, this is me practicing my exposure. I'm in charge, and I'm gonna be observe and be curious about everything I can tolerate. I can tolerate everything in this, so I might as well do it with curiosity. And like we say, learning that I'm the coping technique, and it's not the magic objects that got me here.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Yeah, it's really good. It was a great conversation. Hopefully, he'll come back one day to talk about that. And I guess we're good to go. That's long enough on flying anxiety. Uh, if you guys want to participate in an episode of Disorder, you can go to disorder.fm and send us a voicemail, like I did it anyway, or a question, or like an email. You can send us an email message. We we can't get them all, but we try to read most of them and then some we can incorporate into the episodes. And we always appreciate that about you guys. What else can we tell them?

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Thank you, and keeps keep tuning in. We're here every Friday, and it's time for us to take off.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

Oh my goodness. I think I'm just gonna hit the stop button after that. Thanks for listening, guys. See you next week.