Anxiety and "Incomplete" Recovery (Episode 104)

SPEAKER_00 0:02

I have been an anxiety sufferer for 34 years. I had the ClearWix books and recovered to a really good place, but not completely. And then in my 40s, I moved through again to, with some help of other resources, to another place in my recovery where I can travel. I can drive short distances, be home alone. Do most things and it doesn't really affect my life. But the one thing that has stuck is not driving long distances alone. Do you think that limit of time that has meant that recovery isn't possible? Complete recovery is impossible for me.

SPEAKER_07 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 104 entitled Incomplete Recovery or Incomplete Recovery. My name's Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist who supports Newcastle United. Over the weekend, Newcastle won their first silverware in 70 years, thanks to a goal from Dan Byrne, and followed up by Alexander Isaac. I have a slight headache today, but I'm going to do it anyway. And I'm joined by my esteemed co-host.

SPEAKER_05 1:23

All the way from New York, not in Newcastle or not in the UK, but still happy for Josh anyway, because you team one. I'm Drew Linsolata, the other, the other dude behind the mic here at Disordered. Um, I'm a therapist that practices in the specialty of anxiety and anxiety disorders, a former sufferer of these very same problems for many, many years, a three-time author, psychoeducator, advocate, all of that stuff. And just happy to be here again. One of the fun, fun hours of the week is recording disordered and just watching Josh squirm under his Newcastle United hangover. The after shock was a big day yesterday. Congrats, congrats.

SPEAKER_07 1:57

Yeah, it was good. It's a good reminder, actually. I woke up a bit hunger, I bet a bit of hang xiety this morning, which is some we couldn't we could do and the old habits kicked in. I was like, no, I'm not doing this, just gotta work. Um and yes, it was nice. Um yeah, well, really good question. Incomplete recovery. What do you what do you get from that, Drew, straight away?

SPEAKER_05 2:18

Um, I got uh a commonality, so it's not just you. If if the question sender in or is listening, I promise it's not just you. This is a very, very common story that we see in our community. Like, I don't know what's wrong. I I keep slipping backwards or I can't get over this one thing. And I usually hear it's the like when the person said, I then I recovered again a second time, I was able to do this and this and this, but not this. That that's the clue. You know, this usually indicates like, no, that there's a line in the sand, there's a red zone that I've maintained all through my recovery. And what I've probably done is learned how to do the other things without being too anxious, but that's one that I feel is a little bit too much, and I never really addressed it, and so it lingers. It's not a big mystery. And no, it doesn't mean that you've just been anxious for too long. I I've now worked with people that have been anxious for as long as me, as long as this person, and are and are getting better every day. So no, that it's not like, oh, it's been too long for you. It's definitely not that.

SPEAKER_07 3:19

We know we know the brain's incredibly neuroplastic. You can, you know, a lot of anxiety disorders are habit as well. Uh often unconscious, automatic habits, you know, uh as well as maladaptive beliefs and things like that. But yeah, you can change at any time. There's no one beyond hope with an anxiety or anxiety disorder. Sure. Um, what do you think about this? In my practice, I I just ban the word recovery. I just think I think it creates more problems.

SPEAKER_06 3:49

Hmm.

SPEAKER_07 3:49

I like it. I get I like it initially, yeah. But when you get anxiety disorders are obsessive and compulsive, and anxiety and disorders, particularly obsessive-compulsive ones, thrive off the notion of a singularity, off certainty. So for some people, when they define recovery, that can be misconstrued as a point of certainty, a singularity that the obsessive-compulsive person chases. Yeah, and the these are the people that go, is that recovery? Am I recovered yet? I need to do this to be recovered. Am I recovered yet? I'm gonna check how I feel. Am I recovered? Am I recovered? So I ban it because obviously we work a lot with obsessive-compulsive stuff. This is why we bang on what I bang on about will for tolerance is that you can't, the paradox is you can't measure recovery in the moment when you're anxious, because the whole point is that we're practicing our attitude of being anxious whilst we're anxious, and then it becomes conflated because then we're like, well, if I'm anxious and I don't like it, then I'm not recovered. And it becomes this thing where we just start to fixate and give it all our attention. So I don't know about you, Drew, but not for everyone. But and if you want to define your own recovery, that's fine. But I in the when I'm working with practice, I just ban it, I just change it to how's the skill of getting good at being anxious?

SPEAKER_05 5:07

Yeah, am I recovered? Yeah, that's a that's really good. I I'll probably steal that. I I like it. So, like, is recovery impossible for me because I've been anxious for so long, or I can't get over this one thing. Well, I mean, really, if you're gonna like broadly define the state of being recovered, it if I was gonna give a criteria for that, it wouldn't have anything to do with how you feel or what you're afraid of at all. It would have to do with like being more and more open to all of those really difficult internal experiences. Like, no matter what it is, whether it's anxiety or fear or sadness or anger or whatever else that I might experience as a human being that I think is unacceptable. If I can start to like be okay with having those experiences now and then and working through them, I'm just healthier, whether that's re you know, okay, call it recovery if you want, but I'm more flexible and able to handle like the experience of being alive. Cool. Yeah, like let's just go for that. So it doesn't matter how you feel or what you're afraid of, that doesn't define your recovery at all.

SPEAKER_07 6:00

Yeah, and you can define it yourself. I love how you used the the red zone analogy. There's a red zone we can't go in. Yeah, and I even believe like you just define your own recovery. Everyone has phobias and fears and things like that. If you have you can still call yourself recovered and have a red zone, that's just the next thing you can aim for.

SPEAKER_06 6:19

Sure.

SPEAKER_07 6:19

I prefer that because if you keep waking up every day and telling yourself, I'm not recovered yet, I'm not recovered yet, I'm not, you're giving anxiety importance. So actually, you could be like, you know what, I've done really well. There's a few areas that I I avoid maybe or I'm trying to get, or I'm feeling a bit anxious. And I'll work on them when the time comes, or when I'm when I when I've got time and resources. But try not to measure, have this binary view of what recovery is, because it just fuels rumination in a critic uh and affects your self concept. So what the question send Norina did was share, you know, I've done this, done that. But rather than saying I'm recovered, just be like, you know what, I managed to do this and I'm gonna try and do it again, and then I'm gonna see how what else I can do in other situations where I can practice being anxious and make my world bigger.

SPEAKER_05 7:08

Yeah, I think that's a great point. Like, you know, challenging that, like, well, this means I'm not recovered. Well, what does it tell you that I still can't seem to bring myself to drive by myself for for a longer distance? Why? What's going on? Well, I'm still afraid that if I'm alone in the car and too far from home, I will feel a certain way that I won't be able to handle and I need to be rescued by my safe people. That's much more accurate because it's exactly what's really happening than I'm just not recovered. Well, no, no, no. Okay, so then what does that tell you? If you're able to say, well, what is it about driving too far from home that would that you don't still don't want to do? Okay, cool. Now that you can identify that, well, now what does that inform next? And you always have to keep in mind, I think, from like the defining am I recovered or not, is there a significant negative impact on your daily functioning because of this? If there isn't, you get to decide whether or not that's a thing even you even need to work on or want to, totally fine. And no therapist would say you got to work on that. If it keeps coming back to you in your life, like, uh, it is it is negatively impacting my quality of life, then yeah, you might. But in I like, you know, what does it tell you that I can't do that? Well, what is it about that experience? Start there. And I think most times from a mechanical standpoint, it really comes down to my binary view of acceptance, which is sometimes controversial controversial. Acceptance is either on or off. Now, to get to on, you gotta you can turn the knob up from zero to nine point nine nine nine, but until you get click to on, it's still off. Because if you keep that red zone, which again you're entitled to do, you're vulnerable to this. But if this isn't that bad, then okay, you know, so very individual, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 8:47

But driving's gonna be a theme, I think, in this episode. We got did it anyway, haven't we, with driving?

SPEAKER_05 8:52

We have a couple of driving did it anyways. Um, let's do this one first because it's a little shorter and it's driving and another thing. So here we go.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Hi guys, my name is Mika, and you can use my name if you'd like. I just wanted to share a do-it-anyway with you. Yesterday I drove two hours away from my hometown to go to a concert, and I was pretty anxious about being so far away from home and about being in a large crowd, but I did it anyway. I made it throughout the whole concert. Um, at one point I did have to leave my spot in the middle of the crowd to get to an area that was a little less crowded, but I was so glad that I stuck it out and stayed for the whole show. And I'm looking forward to going to more concerts.

SPEAKER_05 9:42

Nice. Good job, Mika.

SPEAKER_07 9:44

Well done. Have you noticed that um we get a few of the concert ones? I love that as a music ad. No one most people don't reveal who with who was playing. Um just like what is your shame? What's your shame around the genre of who you're listening to?

SPEAKER_05 10:01

No one. If you send in a concert, did it anyway. If you don't tell us who you saw, we ain't playing it.

SPEAKER_07 10:05

Yeah, with with set list and supporting acts.

SPEAKER_05 10:10

Whether it was Queen's Reich or ABBA covered.

SPEAKER_07 10:14

Well done, Mika. That was so good. And I like the compassion there as well. You got there, you went to the gig, you even you had a go at even being in the crowd, and then you stood to the side because you're probably a bit tired and you want to enjoy the gig. That's cool, you know. Um, but you were compassionate about yourself with it. You weren't criticizing yourself because you had to take a moment out and yeah, just keep going, and it would that brain it'll just become normal to your brain.

SPEAKER_05 10:38

Good point. I get asked all the time, like, oh yeah, but you know, I still I had to step away for a couple of minutes. Oh, so I didn't realize I failed. No, what do you mean you failed? Like you're two hours away from home at a concert, you had a good time at how is that possibly failure?

SPEAKER_07 10:49

That's correct, the cray. That's just correct.

SPEAKER_05 10:51

100%. Or my mind kept thinking, how I'm gonna get out of here. I'm like, fine, it's allowed to think whatever it wants. Did you run out? No, but I was thinking about it. Oh, you know, a little kindness toward yourself goes a long way. So good job, Mika. Um, we do have another but we'll save that one a little while, the driving thing. But driving is such a common, we talked about driving anxiety, I think, quite a few times. And you know, driving as it shows up as incomplete recovery. Where are other places that you think people feel like they I'm stuck, I can't seem to get past this final hurdle?

SPEAKER_07 11:24

I think it's for people, particularly the perfectionists and people with strong inner critics, where they apply perfection to what recovery is. You know, it's like, but actually, you know, you have to have room for um being human for all emotions. Drew and I are often saying to people, like, you know, you've got to be open to experience all emotions. But a lot of people misdefine recovery as, well, it's the absence of a feeling I don't like. I've been recovered for a year now because maybe you've been anxious, not been anxious for a year, but life isn't about not being anxious for the people in our community. It's how quickly can I notice and practice? Notice when I'm on the hamster wheel, notice when I'm in a compulsive cycle, notice when it's got all of my attention, and how quickly is that can I note notice and step off from that? Notice my what I'm doing that's keeping me on there and step away from it. Now, if you're someone who has a red zone and you're afraid of it, and then you're all day ruminating and beating yourself up for it and doing all that. I'm 90% recovered. You know, I I we hear that a lot, don't we? I'm 90% recovered. It's like I don't even think that's helpful. It's just actually you're okay, you're just human and you have a phobia of something over there. And yeah, go go go and have go and expose yourself to the phobia when you're ready. There's nothing to do with recovery, yeah. Because you because that's when the label isn't healthy. I love it. I love labels for anxiety disorders, but it's also not healthy when you're the person at home going, Well, I can't say I no longer have an anxiety disorder until I go and do that. It's like, well, not really. You know, it depends. It's it's down to your definition. So when we say we're in recovery, I just it just feels like the the tower of Hanoi can come crashing down a little bit, you know, because as soon as you have a resensitized, you kind of reset everything. And I don't think that's helpful.

SPEAKER_05 13:32

I think you can even look back at, you know, we're always looking for strengths, right? What's the person's strengths? What do they bring into this process that they can lean on? Because we have such negative bias as human beings, and as anxious human beings, we have a huge negative bias. We only care about the bad experiences. We forget the good ones or the ones where we won or learned. Okay, if you twice before in your life, you know, you gathered resources like Claire Weeks or maybe another program or whatever, I'm not sure exactly what this person was doing, and you were able to move forward and improve your functioning, then that tells you something about yourself. How did you do that? Now, you might look back and say, Oh, yeah, but I was trying to control it, so I was aiming at the wrong target. Fair enough, but you still at some point had to do some scary stuff. Sorry, you had to, and you did. So, what does this tell me about my ability to tackle this remaining phobia or fear? And and I think starting also with just an acknowledgement, like, yeah, I'm still really afraid to feel that way. That's a statement of fact, and it's accurate and and it gives you something to work on. I'm not like not recovered, I'm still just really I'm afraid to be too far from home and feel out of control. All right, fair enough. Now what do we do?

SPEAKER_07 14:37

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, and for people who have come a long way and feel like they're recovered or whatnot, I again I I even say to people, you know, I'm banning words in my office, banning words, burning books, censoring everyone. Um, but uh it's um even if you say like the word I am recovered, I think you sometimes set yourself up because the moment when the stress drug overflows a couple of years down the line, a couple of months down the line, and you have a maladaptive belief of I am recovered, I am immune from all anxiety, and guess what? You might get a sticky, sensitized period where you get a bit panicky or an intrusive thought gets you out the blue, or suddenly you're compulsing and ruminating because life got in the way. If you're someone who says to themselves constantly, Well, I'm recovered, I'm fine, that's gonna exacerbate feelings when you suddenly start to become, oh no, I'm back, I'm sliding back, and it's gonna feel more. Whereas I don't know about you, Drew, but even it's always in the back of my mind, it's never conscious, but I go to places knowing that I could panic.

SPEAKER_05 15:48

Sure.

SPEAKER_07 15:48

Yeah, that's okay.

SPEAKER_05 15:51

Yeah, and I make jokes about this too, even like when I'm working with therapy clients, like I had the nerve to go and like spend a lot of money and and get a graduate degree in this and become a therapist and write books and like have a microphone to talk, you know.

SPEAKER_07 16:03

It's such a teacher's pet as well.

SPEAKER_05 16:06

That I had like in confidence in my recovered state. I had the temerity to become a therapist. And even so, like those old pathways still exist in my brain too. So there are times when it pops into my head, like, oh, this could be really challenging. Like I have a full day in front of me and I'm really tired and I'm I'm I'm a little bit stressed, and like, oh, I I could I uh there's a possibility that I might be really anxious today in the office. Right. You know, just that's correct. It's just the the relationship with that is different, though. So a lot of people might say, well, doesn't that mean you're not recovered? Like, no, I might define my own personal state of recovery as my relationship with those thoughts and my my own internal experiences. So oh that I just haven't worked, you know what? There's again there's a relationship analogy we can use. So if you aren't in a relationship with a uh an intimate partner of some kind and you guys do great, but there's that one thing, because you know, your partner likes Newcastle and you're a Liverpool fan, and you just can't seem to come to grips with that. Well, we have a great relationship, except there's one thing we still have to work on. Yeah, same thing. I have a new relationship with my anxiety, except in this one context. So I'll work on that. I just have to work on the relationship with myself there. There you go.

SPEAKER_07 17:15

Yeah, so it's not one or the other, it's not, oh, this uh relationship is doomed because there's one thing that isn't perfect, you know. You just got to accept those things that is accepted. All right, I accept that I'm human, I accept these things happen. Yeah, um, and that and that's okay. Um it's interesting you you spoke about, you know, you notice the old neural pathways there, because that I do too, and it's um because they're there, they're just old and dusty, and we want to keep them old and dusty, really. Uh, but sometimes they will reignite again. Uh, much like the jingle from the old spice avids, that still pops into my head probably once every month. I don't want that thing, see I'm just walking back when I had um Dementophobia OCD, the fear of going insane. Yeah, right. Do you know what doesn't help that? When you're sat in a park worrying you're going insane, and then you just hear the whistle from the old spice avat in your head, and and it only confirms yeah, you might be going insane, yeah, yeah. Just like panicking and and the brains just go stuff, and I was like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 18:24

Should I be thinking that? Should I why is that in my head? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 18:27

It just got yeah, and and and there's something so incongruous about hearing that weird whistle, it feels like, oh my god. Um, but yeah, that that comes up now and then. You know what? I don't care because that's what happens.

SPEAKER_05 18:40

I think it's you know, I I I always love disclosure on disordered because what a great illustration. Now, for you, it happened to be it's the silly old spice whistle. Okay, who that's so random, but I love it because for this person who sent in the question and anybody else who's struggling with like this is that one thing that still triggers me. Notice how everybody will have their own. Like it's such a common experience that like Josh's old spice whistle might send him a little bit down the demetophobia rabbit hole, even today, or not. And so for this person, it's driving too far. For another person, it might be being home alone, for another person, it's eating food that they've avoided for 10 years because it's triggering, and then I still can't bring myself to do that. Like, okay, everybody has their own their own little work that comes with it, it's okay.

SPEAKER_07 19:24

So, yeah, absolutely. And it doesn't bother me now, but allow I I I shared it as a as a kind of demonstration of how even back then, like the brain, because you when you repeat something over and over again, you create that neuropathway and it's still there. Like, I would say, you know, I'm recovered from an anxiety disorder now, very confident, confidently. But yeah, you just get these random thoughts that come into your head from a time that you were anxious. Yeah, the difference is I'm in recovery, recovered, I don't care anymore, is because I just see it for what it is. My relationship with my thoughts and my feelings are a lot better, you know. And for me, I would self-define that as recovery.

SPEAKER_05 20:06

Yeah, I think I could even I can see it for what it is, and I could see it for what it was, which I think is something that we forget also. Like, yeah, that was a time in my lifetime in your lifetime, and anybody who's ever struggled with this sort of stuff, that was a time in my life when it was very difficult. And I I just I didn't know if I was gonna get out of it, and I felt terrible about myself and I was scared all the time. And that's gonna leave a mark. Like, even to this day, it's gonna leave some mark, and that's gonna once in a while keep, you know, that you call it the mirror cat thing, right? It's still gonna pop up with like that was so that was really not cool, man. Like, we don't want to go back there, so we better keep an eye on that. Yeah, pretty, pretty common.

SPEAKER_07 20:39

Exactly. Yeah, I love that. I love that seeing it for what it is and seeing it for what it was.

SPEAKER_05 20:43

But why it was a very difficult experience in anybody's life, so why would it not once in a while inform some of the mechanisms that your brain employs to try to keep you safe? Of course it will.

SPEAKER_07 20:54

I had a a fierce debate with some other therapists, uh, that trauma-informed therapists. And I was obviously in the corner of anxiety disorders. Yes, you can have trauma and anxiety disorders, they can coexist, of course. Everyone's different, it's nuanced. But they were saying like their approach was like, no, you must get to the root of the trauma to stop that. And like, no, you need to see what's in front of you. People have a fear of fear, and they've been in a habit for so long that their brains are wired to, like me, to fear all these things. But the main point that I said to these people is that what you often oversee being trauma informed is that the anxiety disorder itself was traumatic.

SPEAKER_05 21:37

Sure.

SPEAKER_07 21:37

Yeah, yeah, that's it. So there's no like hidden deep cave that we need to go and find the magic trauma. It's like, no, I got really stressed, the stress drug overflowed, um, I freaked out, I hated it, and it terrified me. That was the traumatic experience that I now trying to shape my life around. Um And yeah, it it just strikes me that when when you talk to some therapists who are not anxiety disorder informed, they failed to see that actually back then, like we're talking about, back then, yeah, that was that's what it felt like it was. Yeah, it was scary, but now I'm just doing doing the work to kind of get my brain back to to balance again.

SPEAKER_05 22:20

I think we might even argue that like the the maintenance of the red zone or the no-fly zone and incomplete recovery, air quotes title today's episode, could be that also. Like those experiences of driving far from home by myself when I panicked were so impactful on me that like I'm still avoiding that and I still don't like those memories, and I still like it, looks very much like a trauma response, right? So, but even if you want to be, and welcome to all the trauma-informed therapists that may be listening, like y'all know that in the end, getting to the root of the trauma means taking your client through retelling those stories and rebuilding a meaningful narrative and learning to work through the memorbeing flushed away by them, right? We we know all that. Guess what? Same thing here. Like, how do I overcome my red zone? If we want to take a trauma interpretation of that, oh, those memories were just so hard that I don't want to go into that zone. Well, that's how we would do it. You know, in the end, same thing, except that the target is the the internal experience, not the event. It wasn't the driving that did it, it was the way the person felt while they were driving, and we got to work on that. So, like, none of this is a mystery in the end, and it doesn't mean you're forever doomed to never drive too far from home or whatever your red zone is. It's just another thing to work on, which is okay, perfectly acceptable. Yeah, absolutely. Should we play another did it anyway? Yeah, I'm very impressed with uh like we've had a very broad brush approach to this. Um, I I'm also used that whole like that's the creation of the red zone, could be the traumatic interpretation of the the disorder itself. Who knows? Yeah, yeah, let's do another did it anyway because it's a good one.

SPEAKER_07 23:51

Here we go. Some good stuff grew out of this nonsense. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 23:55

Hi, Joss and Drew. My name's Julia. Um, I'm calling from Arizona. I'm actually driving home at night right now, which is something I haven't done in a long time by myself. I suffer with extreme OCD, panic disorder, all of the things. Driving at night was probably my main trigger. I remember sending a lot of voicemails, you know, during my recovery, as one would say. But now I'm realizing that those voicemails, I was just kind of seeking reassurance. I had gone through a healthy thing, and basically what doctors were dismissing as anxiety wasn't actually anxiety. And I was sending these messages like, how am I ever supposed to trust the doctor again? I think I've just now realized that that's not the point. You'll never have a hundred percent certainty about it, and gotta willfully tolerate that. And I think I just realized that I'm getting better at it. I wanted to thank you guys for everything you do, and also let you know that next week I start my master's program for mental health counseling. You guys were a big part of that. And I just love everything that you guys do. And yeah, keep on. Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_05 25:16

Could not love that anymore.

SPEAKER_07 25:19

That was that was excellent, wasn't it? I love that. Well, I love that moment of laughter, like, oh yeah, that that that's that's the point.

SPEAKER_05 25:26

That was the point when I was editing that too. It was like, oh, I just figured out that wasn't the point, was it? Like, yeah, well done.

SPEAKER_07 25:34

And what a great asset you'll be to the therapy world. You you get it, you'll spot compulsions a mile away.

SPEAKER_05 25:40

Yeah, yeah, it's gonna be great. And hang in there two and a half years or so, you'll get through it. So very good. Thank you, Julie. Appreciate you sharing. Um driving home at night, like all the good stuff in there. Oh, I just I'll start gushing over Julie if I'm careful.

SPEAKER_07 25:55

You do gush. Yeah, I was cry I was gushing yesterday, Drew. When the final whistle went, I dropped to my knees and sobbed. And then my little dog came over, who was also in a Newcastle shirt. Yeah, and he came over and and he started licking my face. Uh yeah, I was I sobbed like tears, everything. Oh, and it was lovely. It's nice to actually have that emotion. It's really, I thought it was good. Sorry for any sorry for any Liverpool fans out there.

SPEAKER_05 26:24

No, it's totally fine. I I think the best part of that was that, and uh by the way, I got that video. That was a text that came in yesterday evening. I I really appreciated that somebody had the presence of mind to film you in that vulnerable situation and then send it to your friends. So oh, yeah, I don't mind. That's fine. Yeah, it was very good. Uh yeah, yeah. No, but what a release though. Like, there is you know, we talk all the time about being open to all the emotions. Like, could you well how would that have felt back in the day when you were in the thick of it?

SPEAKER_07 26:57

And like just I wouldn't have watched the game.

SPEAKER_05 26:59

Yeah, the that level of excitement and emotion would be overwhelming.

SPEAKER_07 27:03

Check my heart rate during the game, it's 110 standing still.

SPEAKER_05 27:07

Amazing, right?

SPEAKER_07 27:07

Yeah, yeah. Uh uh, but no, back then, years ago, I'd have been like, oh no, that's I got I've got to avoid anything that makes me feel because I don't believe in my own ability to tolerate my emotions, or I don't believe that they'll ever disappear, or whatever. But when you know it's a fact that all feelings are transient, as Drew says, and they pass. And also it's part of the joy. You watch it, it was it felt awful, but you can't have one emotion without its polar opposite, otherwise, we don't exist, yeah, you know, and that's and that's the whole point. I think but when you support a football team your entire life have never won anything, I think all the sadness, anxiety, and disappointment just came out at the end.

SPEAKER_05 27:48

Yeah, gushing out for sure. It's funny, I guess it was 2008. American football and the Giants beat the Patriots. That the perfect undefeated, and screw you, Tom Brady, just FYI. 16 years later, I'm still telling you. Sucked, right? So you know, everybody just assumed the Patriots because he listens to this podcast 100%.

SPEAKER_07 28:13

I'm sure he's listening.

SPEAKER_05 28:14

Yeah, he's a huge fan, Tom Brady, I'm sure. But like I remember that because I was at kind of the tail end, or still not really totally out of the woods. And oh my goodness, my heart pounding and pacing around watching the end of that game. And I remember I did need to leave the room for just a second because it started to morph into panic a little bit. And I'm like, wait a minute, what is going on here? Yeah, in and finish, and it was so much fun, but it was also real scary. So that's really common experience for people like us as well. So it's okay, it's okay if that happens to you.

SPEAKER_07 28:42

Yeah, and you don't want to be that person when you're trying to enjoy life, whether it's a sports game like Drew and I, or whatever it is you're doing, you know, out with your kids, restaurant, whatever. You don't want to be that person who's constantly going, I can't be anxious, otherwise it means I'm not recovered. I can't, you know, you you you can all the emotions are welcome.

SPEAKER_05 29:01

And then all the most important thing in the room becomes how you feel all the time. That's you know how much that's a there's so much more is going on than how I feel, and that's the self-centered nature of the disorder, not the person. Yeah, anxiety disorder is like super how's it gonna make me feel? That's like the literally recording of every anxiety disorder. Me, it's gonna make me feel what every anxiety disorder sounds like. The person is not self-centered, they would prefer not to live that way, but it's always like look inside, look inside. How do we feel?

SPEAKER_04 29:28

Maybe there's a threat there.

SPEAKER_07 29:30

Shut up, yeah. Yeah, I do. I often do that with with client. Any there's any previous clients listening, there they'll be aware of the uh voice that I might have for intrusive thoughts.

SPEAKER_04 29:43

You know, anyone with OCD, it's like, but what if it's not OCD? What if you are a psychopath? Shut up.

SPEAKER_05 29:53

There's a real Woody Allen bent to your intrusive thoughts impression, though. It's pretty good.

SPEAKER_04 29:58

Um if you do lose control, shut up, just whiny, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:05

It really is very whiny. Um, yeah. What if I've been anxious for too long and I can't recover? There you go, right?

SPEAKER_07 30:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That that's Craig the Critic's voice, I think, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 30:14

He's super annoying, man. Just a whiny little anyway.

SPEAKER_07 30:19

Mom, he pushed me. He's that kid that grew up. He is a hundred percent that kid completely fabricated that you never pushed him, but he's like, 'cause he just yeah, because he just wants attention and to be neurotic. That is the voice of Craig the Critic.

SPEAKER_05 30:32

You know what else it does that kids do in the backseat of a of a family trip that like just barely almost touching you? I'm not touching you, not touching you, but it's like meaning the ass brother or sister that has their finger right in your eye that's like a centimeter away, but they're not really touching you, but I'm not touching you.

SPEAKER_07 30:50

Not doing anything.

SPEAKER_05 30:51

That is literally an anxiety disorder. Like it, I no, I'm not, nothing is actually happening, but I'm just going to get you right on the edge where it's so annoying.

SPEAKER_07 30:58

And it's that same kid that punches themselves and then blames you. Yeah, and it's like see, and they're convinced, see? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:09

Wow, this this took a turn to expect to go in this direction of the episode. But I think those are accurate. And if it helps you to conceptualize your anxiety in that way, run with this stuff.

SPEAKER_07 31:17

Yeah, it's for the three people that that resonates with.

SPEAKER_05 31:20

I hope that really maybe maybe two, maybe three, maybe four. Who knows? But that's why people name their anxiety sometimes and do silly things like that. You can use tricks like that. So uh we got any questions? We got a question, so it's an audio question. We might as well play that and we will dig into it a little bit. Here we go.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Hey guys, I'm Amrita here. I'm from India, and you can use my name. I've been listening to you guys for a really long time now, and I'm so so thankful for what you do. I relate to most of the things that you guys talk about, but right now and for a long time, I've suffered from crippling exam anxiety. I'm currently preparing for the USMLA exam, which I'll be giving in a couple of months. It's a nine-hour long exam, and all I can think about is how I'm going to be so anxious and panicky that I'm not going to be able to even read the questions, let alone think about them and answer them. Especially because it's a lengthy exam and I'm gonna be burnt out in the first few hours. Maybe exams are not a common thing of adulthood for most people, and that's why you guys haven't chosen to speak about it. But if you do, it would really be helpful. On a separate note, when you guys mention that you've had a 20-year-long journey or so with anxiety, it has me wondering if I also must go through those many years before I feel better, or is that is that so, or is it just my anxiety talking? Um, thank you again so much for what you do. It's helped me immensely. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 32:46

What do you think? Exam anxiety. What you think?

SPEAKER_05 32:49

I don't know. You're you're you're the you're the hungover one, so I'll take this one.

SPEAKER_07 32:53

Let me have my parasitic.

SPEAKER_05 32:56

Um, first of all, it sounds like nine hours definitely gonna be difficult. So let's acknowledge it's it's a big exam. So it's uh normal to be nine hours. Nine hours is a long exam, right? So I'm not exactly sure what the exam is, but who's not gonna be anxious with the thank you. So like I think you have to start with recognizing that, like, yes, this is a demanding, challenging task, and I do want to do well. I want to pass the exam. So I'm going to be nervous about this. That's normal. Like, I'm why would I not be nervous about this? But the question I might ask in return, this is that annoying Drew answers a question by answering your question, is is this really exam anxiety? And the reason why I ask is halfway through the message, uh, this person says, Well, I'm so worried that I'm just going to be panicking and anxious. Uh so is it really just about the the anxiety of performing well on the examination, or is it mainly I'm gonna feel a way that I'm afraid of feeling, and then that's gonna ruin my test taking experience, which naturally it it could. So they're connected, but I'm not sure that it's necessarily an exam anxiety question at face. I don't know, what do you think?

SPEAKER_07 34:00

Yeah, I agree. I think well, the maybe you are worried about your exam, and that's a human experience. Um maybe you, you know, if the exam is everything to you, I kind of just re-evaluate and be like, okay, it's important to me. But don't but make sure it's not everything to you. Because when I work with youngsters with exams, they're like sometimes their exam is like the be-all and end all, you know, like no, you must pass this exam, you know. And I'm like, it's not gonna be helpful, but I think the majority, what of it, what it sounds like that Drew's pointed out, is it's you're afraid of your fear of fear. Uh, I'll give you a pragmatic answer. I won't be annoying like Drew, and just be like answering a question, asking a question. Annoying, so annoying. Uh, I'll say, you know, worst case scenario, you do panic. And actually, it's one of those scenarios where actually a nine-hour exam is in your favor because you panic for no longer than two, three minutes. Two, three minutes out of a nine-hour exam. Well, it's a toilet break. You know, you'll you'll deal with it. Don't run away. Yeah, you're not gonna be there for nine hours in a constant state of panic and anxiety. You're gonna be anxious naturally because it's an exam. But if the secondary fear crops up and you're like, what if I'm fearing? But here's the thing, I'd wager this, Drew. I'd I'd I'd I'd bet you, Drew, 50 bucks that when the exam starts, you're not gonna care because your attention is external. At the moment, this is a problem in the anticipation. Your anticipatory anxiety is telling you that you're gonna go to the exam, you're gonna freak out, throw tables, kind of whatever. But actually, this is why anticipatory anxiety and situational anxiety are so different, and they originate from different parts of the brain. But sit anticipatory anxiety always gets it wrong, and it gets it wrong because when you're in the moment of doing something, your attention is always on other things. You'll be concentrating on your exam.

SPEAKER_06 35:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 35:56

And I think that'll play into your favor too.

SPEAKER_05 35:59

And I think it's a perfect example of how what's important, what's important to us really matters in two instances. I mean, I don't remember who said it on the podcast. Like, if you really want to know what's important to you, look at what makes you cry and look at what terrifies you. So, like, okay, it's this exam is important to me. And that also is a strength because in a moment where I have to tend to something that's important, I will take a risk in that moment of putting my attention on this examination, not just on how I feel. Now, how I feel is probably gonna be yelling at me and and popping up. But the trick here is just I I have a task to do. And I instead of trying to be solely focused on controlling my internal state, I'm gonna have to start practicing because you got a couple of months ahead of time when you're studying and you're taking practice exams, because I'm sure that's what you're gonna be doing. Like, oh, I have to practice this. Is what's really important, was actually what's on this paper on the screen in front of me. What the most important thing in the room cannot be how I feel. So I'm gonna have to practice taking a risk, feel how I feel, and go here to the thing that matters to me. Anytime you could practice that before your exam, you're giving yourself a leg up. So yeah, see, I wasn't just annoying, that was practical.

SPEAKER_07 37:08

Yeah, it was practical. Yeah, I'll give you that. It was also annoying.

SPEAKER_05 37:13

Anything else that we want to go over?

SPEAKER_07 37:15

No, I think there was another question, but we'll save that for next week because I'm just a little conscious of the time. Sounds good. Um, but yeah, um, feel free to sign up to the mailing list uh to find out about some upcoming disordered round tables. Um thank you to everyone who's left us a nice review or purchase Drew's or mine's books. Uh, and thank you for yeah, thank you just for just tuning in every Friday, being nice, spreading the word, sending in your did it anyways. You can do it all at disordered.fm. Have I missed anything?

SPEAKER_05 37:46

No, I think you got it all pretty good. Yes. All right, guys. We'll see you next week. Thanks for hanging out.

SPEAKER_07 37:51

See you later.