Anxiety, Caffeine, Alcohol, and Cheeseburgers (Episode 86)

SPEAKER_03 0:01

If you have anxiety, clearly you should not drink coffee. I'm like, well, it says who? This is where anxiety disorders and general wellness advice become conflated. I want you to live like you, like non-anxious you.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

I cannot eat this, I can't eat that, I gotta eliminate this, I gotta stay away from that because it's bad for my mental health. Those habits can last, right? And and they may have an impact on your life down the road.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Any good anxiety disorder-informed therapist, they don't like avoidance, even if that means doing stuff that isn't conventionally thumbs up. If I change a variable here and there, maybe it'll make my anxiety better.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

If not ever smoking again is what your values tell you to do, then that's also okay. Well, I'm only doing this because I'm afraid of my own body and mind. That's what we're talking about today.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

This is episode 86 entitled Caffeine, Nicotine, Alcohol, and Cheeseburgers. Um, as you can tell, this is the real stuff that we need to talk about. I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm based in the UK, author of several books, co-host of this podcast. Um sometimes like reading historical fiction, and my star sign is cancer.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

And I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist practicing under supervision in the state of New York, specializing also in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders, also an author on the topic, former sufferer for many, many years, now better. Psychoeducator, advocate, social media dude. Um, I saw David Gilmore last night at Madison Square Garden. That was awesome. And today we're gonna talk about alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, and cheeseburgers. I have caffeine right in front of me right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:55

I mean, it naturally comes to mind when I think of David Gilmore. Why wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:58

That's all you, that's all the dude lives on, I think. I'm making it up. I have no idea what David Gilmore eats.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Yeah, yeah, um, it's a good topic because you often hear, um, particularly in our community in the wellness sphere, like, you know, I I I've cut out smoking, I've cut out drinking, what what what's good for anxiety, what's not. And we're gonna have a nice nuanced conversation about this today and share what we do as therapists. Yes, that it will be a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

And we have a, I guess it did it anyway, that prompted this. So maybe we should start with that because it it is definitely a win and a question and suggested the topic of the day. So should we play it? Yeah. Let's do it. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Hi, Drew and Josh. Uh, my name is Marty, and I am coming from the land down under Queensland, Australia. I just wanted to firstly thank you both so much for Disordered. It's a shining light. Um, and I know I speak on behalf of the entire disordered community. I look forward to every episode coming each week. I just wanted to pop in with a did it anyway. So I gave up smoking um 15 years about 40 days ago. I think it was 40 days yesterday, and I've been noticing an increase in my anxiety and my somatic symptoms around panic, and I have applied um a lot of the floating techniques that I read in Um Complete Self-Help for Your Nerves, which is an awesome book. Thanks, Drew. Um, and also needing to know for sure um deaf D E F the Distinguish, Embrace, Avoid Returns Seeking, and Float Through. Uh, it's been really helpful. So I want to thank you guys so much for that. And I just wanted to know if you guys could do an episode on giving up smoking, because I know that my anxiety symptoms and just the thought of me feeling and experiencing panic and anxiety symptoms and depression symptoms were actually was actually a huge part of why I didn't give up smoking for a very long time. Without you two and the podcast, both uh the anxious truth and disordered, I don't think I would be in this position. So thank you guys so much.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

Well done, Marty. Keep it going. And if you want to quit smoking and quit nicotine, you know, it's it's uh it can be a tricky thing, and well done. And yeah, it influenced uh uh the decision to talk about this today. Um, because I'm gonna ask you, Drew, is it required that you give up smoking, drinking, uh you know, uh what the other ones? Cheeseburgers. I ain't giving up cheeseburgers and caffeine. Is that all do you have to give all that up to overcome anxiety?

SPEAKER_02 4:24

The I'm gonna say the answer is no. I mean, you can make the choice if you want to, if they those things don't make you feel good and you want to just be healthier or whatever, it's fine. But I just don't like when those things get automatically and dogmatically connected to mental health. Like, well, if you have anxiety, clearly you should not drink coffee. I'm like, well, it says who, you know. And I I think that's evidenced by the the very large number of people in the community somewhere. We share so much of our audience that like are so happy to go back to drinking coffee and tea. They miss it, they like it, they like the ritual, they like the taste, and they gave it up by default, and then they're just so happy to go back to it, often in the middle of recovery. And guess what? They get better. So, no, you don't have to do that.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

This is where anxiety disorders and general wellness advice become conflated. In my practice, I'm very dogmatic in the sense that I want you to live like you, like non-anxious you, you know. So I get people coming in all the time. You know, I miss stimulants, I miss um, you know, I used to go out with with a beer for a beer with my buddies or wine, uh, with with with my girlfriends or whatever. And and I stopped doing that because of the anxiety. And yes, wellness advice will tell you, you know, alcohol's bad. We're adults, we get it. We know these things aren't great for us, but you know, sometimes that's a choice that non-anxious us would make. Yeah, like I know I'm this weekend, I'm seeing a couple of friends, and we will have a few beers, you know. Do I know the health risks of that? Yes, but I take those risks because I'm doing it because that's what non-anxious me would do. Um however, you know, I don't know about you, Drew, but many years ago I would be like, nope, cut that out, cut out caffeine. Uh now, don't get me wrong, if you're in the midst of panic disorder, I would probably say, like, you know, take out your vices one at a time. Marty said a voice uh sent in a really interesting point where actually, you know, stopping uh smoking was what was the exposure for him. Uh whereas other people actually stopped smoking because the stimulation from nicotine actually causes panic. So it's different, it's really interesting the association you had that. I actually stopped smoking because it would make me feel more on edge. Um, whereas in Marty's case it sounds like no, the the the withdrawal was was putting me more on edge. Yeah, uh, so it depends, and that and that kind of summarizes the issue here. Today, I think it's all about why, what's your relationship with these things and why are you doing it? If it's something that non-anxious you would do or doesn't want to do, we go with that. But if you're doing it because you're trying to shortcut your way out of feeling anxious and you're in the midst of disordered anxiety, then I would put a big question mark over that.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Yeah. I it's interesting because for me, a little personal experience, like I'm not a big drinker anyway. No one will ever accuse me of being a big drinker, but for years when I was struggling, no alcohol. I I could not, I was not gonna take the risk that something would alter my state of mind because I was so terrified of that feeling. And I remember the first time like going back and like, all right, you know what, I'm doing so much better. Like, let me try a glass of wine. I'm not a big wine drinker, but like I wanted to do it just for the experience again of like, all right, I can handle that. And even to this day, and we've talked about this, like, you're not erasing your old neural pathways, you're building new ones. Even to this day, if I sit down and I'm gonna say have a drink, which I do every couple of weeks, maybe I'll have a poor bourbon or something. That part of my brain is still conditioned to question whether I should do it. So, one of the things, yeah, one of the, and that's interesting, it came up this past weekend, and I thought, oh, this is something I should talk about. And I'm glad we're doing this topic today, because sometimes those habits are hard to die. I I don't answer it, it's fine, but every once in a while I will still get that little bit of trepidation, like, oh, how's this gonna make me feel?

SPEAKER_03 8:20

I'm like, why am I asking this question? I read that this morning because I slept. We both didn't sleep well last night. We're we're done today. We don't share the same bed, by the way. It was just coincidence that we both didn't sleep like the greatest hugging the cushions, get off the odd couple screaming amygdala in your face and the shot. Oh my god. We both didn't sleep well last night. Uh and I felt a bit groggy, woke up, and I went to make a coffee. And you're right. I usually I make a coffee and I drink it, but and I was like, oh, I feel a bit on edge and groggy. And yeah, that old kind of thought came in like, how's this gonna make me feel? Yeah. And then immediately I was like, who cares? I need coffee. Right. Which did nothing, by the way. I just drank it, and not only did it create anxiety, it didn't create the intended effect of waking up.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

No, I can I can confirm it's groggier than he ever has been. It's just oh, that's Josh falling asleep on the mic. And same thing. When the thought comes up, you know what, maybe even this morning I'm drinking coffee right now, there's caffeine in front of me, and there's also a big bottle of water. And I said before we started recording, let me drink more water so this caffeine doesn't really mess me up. Now, admittedly, if I just wake up and pound on an espresso shot, it might make my stomach a little upset. That's true. But there's that other part. So if you're going to do the sort of avoidant, I cannot eat this, I can't eat that, I gotta eliminate this, I gotta stay away from that because it's bad for my mental health, those habits can last, right? And and they may have an impact on your life down the road. Again, the question is irrelevant to me, but it still comes up, which I found interesting, throwing it out there.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Yeah.

unknown 9:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

I mean, I'm so passionate about what would not anxious you do. And any good anxiety disorder-informed therapist or you know, highly trained CBT therapist wants you to do that. They don't like avoidance, even if that means doing stuff that isn't conventionally thumbs up. So I I remember a few years ago I had a couple of these clients who, and you always say this, and you've probably heard this like my panic attack started when I smoked weed once.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

And so therefore, I stopped smoking weed. And yeah, okay, we're adults, we get it. Cannabis has a lot of downsides. Um, you know, and but ultimately I could see that this person just wanted to live like non-anxious them. So I said hypothetically, and I'm not going to say this out loud on a podcast because cannabis is still illegal in the UK, but I said hypothetically, there might be a therapist in a place where cannabis is legal that may suggest that you could use this as an exposure therapy. But I'm not suggesting that because I'm not allowed to, yeah. So I'm not going to.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

And you know, but that's a really good point.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

But but it can be an exposure for some people, whether it's that uh alcohol's a big one. Alcohol, yeah. All the time. Alcohol's another one. Like alcohol's the two sides again, though. And again, it's this is why it's your relationship with it. Yeah, some people drink alcohol because it just takes away feelings of anxiety. Um, you know, I heard not so long ago, you know, once I have one, two pints, I feel like my normal self because it's a nervous system suppressant. However, for some people, their trigger is when I'm not feeling completely homeostatic, that's the trigger and it makes me feel more anxious, you know. Uh or you could be the OCD people who are like, someone spiked my drink, you know, which I used that used to happen uh to me many years ago. So yeah, it's that relationship with it.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Alcohol is especially complicated, I think, because aside from people's relationship with it, and of course, you know, if you've got an alcohol problem, we're not talking about that. And also in all of what we're talking about today is it's if it goes, if it's in line with what you value, your values, your morals, your ethics, then knock yourself out. Like there's nothing wrong with that. If you enjoy, say, the social aspect of socializing, that might include like being in a wine club or like going to microbreweries and trying different breweries, you know, beers with your friends. That's in alignment with your values, then go for it. But alcohol is such a weird thing because it is a a depressant in a way, but it is also in some ways a stimulant because it's going to raise your heart rate. When you consume alcohol, your heart rate is naturally going to go up. You know, anybody who has a whoop band or a fitness watch or whatever, like if you track your sleep, I I know 100% if I have one drink, my heart rate's gonna, my at night, my heart rate's gonna go while I'm sleeping from like 50 up into the 60s. Because that's just what it does to your body. It says, All right, your body is doing what it does to metabolize it. So it has these crazy combination of effects that really freaks anxious people out. Like it calms me down, but then I get really anxious about it. Oh, yeah, well, you feel your heart rate go up and you're feeling those effects. So it's such a strange thing. But you gotta follow what you think is non-life. That's exactly right. And I, you know, using maybe marijuana as an exposure, yeah, you're right. You gotta be careful where you are to suggest that. But if if not ever smoking again is what your values tell you to do, then that's also okay. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just like, well, I'm only doing this because I'm afraid of my own body and mind. Well, that's when we're that's what we're talking about today.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

So yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And that's that's and and I again I'm really passionate about that as a therapist. You know, I want you to get back to what non-anxious you would be doing. You know, I'm not interested to do, I'm not gonna self-righteously cast aspersions on your life choices. Yeah, if if they're just something you're doing, they're not harming anyone.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Yeah, nothing wrong.

SPEAKER_03 13:51

Unlike some people, uh, but but in general, like it's it's okay. You do what you need to do. That's uh cheeseburgers is another one. I used to avoid cheeseburgers and fatty foods because they make me bloat and I didn't like the feeling of pressure on my ribs.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Yeah, for me, it was not fatty foods, it was grains. Like grains. Every once in a while, if I yeah, not always, but if I'm going to have a bloated feeling after eat, it's if I eat a very carb-heavy meal, I might feel bloated. That's just not all the time, sometimes. And so I try to avoid that, like the plague, because that full bloated feeling was not okay. That was Panic City for me. So yep. Yeah, and if you have air hunger, it's like yes, because you have that bloated feeling and the air hunger at the same time. I was like, no, bread is clearly the devil. I cannot eat bread. But that was not true. It might make me uncomfortable sometimes, but it had nothing to do with making me panic. That was me being afraid of my body.

SPEAKER_03 14:50

Yeah, I I cut out gluten for years. And I'm just like, why? Yeah, I'm not alert to gluten. I just because when you when you Google and when you're trying to find these things, you you pick your somatic issue or your fear or whatever, and we take that mechanic view of things. Well, if I change a variable here and there, maybe it'll make my anxiety better. But the overarching theme is, and again, when the threat response is always watching, it's watching you behave like you are broken. So once upon a time, you used to not care about this. So, actually, you know what? I went out, had a few beers, and got a disfilthy kebab on the way home, led in bed, ate it in bed, didn't even drink water, woke up, felt hungover, didn't care. Because that's what non-extras me would do. I felt rubbish, but I didn't really care. Maybe I had anxiety like everyone else gets.

SPEAKER_04 15:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

But now when the fear of fear develops, the brain's watching that you are changing everything in order to not feel that fear. Oh, sorry, lads, I'm cutting out the kebab tonight. Oh no, I'm just gonna drink water, and then wellness advice justifies our avoidance. Well, actually, yeah, you know, it's not good to do that. It's not good to do that, which is fine. But again, I take that I'm from the of the position of you're adults, you get this. And I'm for the fourth time now, very passionate about you living non-anxious, used life.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Well, you know, the cheeseburger thing is a good one because it's one that I think a lot of people wouldn't alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, yeah, they all get that. The food part, not everybody gets the avoidance of food. And I think some of this speaks to uh health risk. Because if you just wanted to be purely like the data says, and that shifts over time, we know that, and your sources are so important. Please don't take your advice from people like the food babe and people who are trying to scare you into telling you your food is poisoning you. That's not cool. But you could say, like epidemiologically from public health studies, like, yeah, we can tie increased consumption of this particular thing to a prevalence of this type of health issue in a given population. It suggests that there may be a link. Okay, you can go with that. For an anxious mind, that is literally saying that the cheeseburger will kill you tomorrow. So we all make decisions. Right. Like we all make consumption decisions, and human beings have always been doing this, that we know sometimes this is not really optimal for me. But I'm going to assume that my body has the flexibility to once in a while have a cheeseburger or some pizza or something. And am I going to take 32 seconds off the end of my lifespan with this cheeseburger? I might be. They're part of me might recognize that that could be.

SPEAKER_03 17:41

And it's worth it.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Yes. And then we make the choice anyway, this is the way we live. Now, we don't want to go down the road where we live on nothing but crap. You should eat healthy, but an anxious mind will take that health risk or the suggestion that this might not be a thing that you want to do too often and turn it into certain doom instantly. Or it's linked with maybe increased prevalence of, say, colorectal cancer or something like that. And then the wellness community will take that and say, well, it's poison and it makes everything go wrong. They will tie it to everything. It's they'll take the colorectal cancer risk and turn it into inflammation and gut health and like mental health problems. And you know, your brain is in your body. So if you eat a cheeseburger, your brain's going to be suffering. No, we blow it out of proportion.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

I just don't bother. I just don't really. I think this I have a theory that the stress around hyperfixating on your diet is worse for you than just not caring and just relying on the fact that you're an adult, you're not stupid. Yeah. Eat vegetables, have a balanced diet, you know. But when you go when you go online, there's the idiots that like vegetables are toxic. I'm like, nah, man, you're toxic. Like, you know, and then they'll like inflate things like like vegetables have like a certain toxic molecule in that literally everything has in. Yeah. And you'd have to eat like seven tons of broccoli in order for it to have a toxic effect, but then you know, scaremongering stuff like that. I honestly think the stress around it, it's just my theory.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

I would agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

I just think the stress around worrying about what you're eating is more harmful than just just eat it.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yeah, in a way, because you're giving there's flexibility in there that you need. And I know you can relate to this. If you sit in a room with somebody in that sort of intimate setting, and they you can see the exhaustion, the hopelessness, they're they're beaten down by these control strategies, whether they're being compulsive about food, drink, what they consume, or trying to control their thoughts or their emotions. You're right. The stress of trying to control everything is far more impactful than the actual cheeseburger, the cup of coffee, or like having a scary thought about cheating on your partner. No, no, it definitely is. So there's something about letting go of the demand to micromanage and control that brings a sense of relief. And okay, the cheeseburger might not be the healthiest thing for you, but letting go kind of is, and building that flexibility is so important.

SPEAKER_03 20:05

You nailed it with flexibility, that's it, because I mean, overcoming any anxiety disorder is being accessed, being able to access uh flexibility with our attention, with our behavior, with everything. When people, including you and I, well, I can't speak for you, but for me, it it was behavior done out of urgency to fix. So I remember buying a FODMAP diet book, and I started eradicating like onions and things, things with high FODMAP things, and I was getting frustrated because I was like, Well, there must be some kind of thing here, you know. And actually, I realized when when I stopped caring, I stopped getting bloated. You know, I was I the light bulb moment for me was many years ago. I went out and I had a massive pizza, and I went home and I wasn't even that bloated, and I was just quite happy and calm. And in contrast to the day before, where I had this like Greek salad, really healthy, I had half half of it and felt bloated all day. I was like, what is it? What's the thing? Oh, yeah, the answer was in front of me the whole time. I'm I'm have a fear of fear. So when I eat this salad and I'm not distracted, and my default mode network is to scan, hyperfixate, you know, on my body. Don't be surprised. Then the threat response kicks in, and our pal amygdala's like, is there a threat? Yeah, whereas when I was out with my buddies, stuffing pizza into my face, not compulsing, lo and behold, I'm not bloated. That was the light bulb moment for me. It's me that's doing this, unless obviously you actually have a food intolerance.

SPEAKER_04 21:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:39

But I didn't. I thought I was convinced I had a food intolerance. I didn't.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Isn't that amazing? How like the it's where was your attention in that moment? Like, I was on the socializing, on bullshit with my buddies. Like, okay, cool. Then suddenly I'm not so hyper focused on how I feel, and like whatever the pizza did to my body, it did, and I didn't pay attention to it or didn't react to it like it was an emergency. So, like, that is. Super important. And you're right, that's flexibility. Where's my attention going to be?

SPEAKER_03 22:04

I was just thinking that I remember years ago, like a loved one asked me how my day was. I remember saying this, I said, a really lovely day in the office. I managed to get a client to start smoking again. Uh and everyone looked at me and they were like, Wait, what? That's not cool. I was like, in the anxiety disorder world, it is because this and this is a really important thing. I know it sounds stupid, but this client missed having their pipe at the end of the day and they stopped. Yeah. And it was a choice that was taken away from them. It becomes recovery when it becomes a choice for you. If you feel like it's no longer a choice and you feel like that you cannot do that because of a fear of fear, then that can feel disempowering. Sorry. Notifications. Whereas if you're like, no, I want this to be if you're the kind of person that feels like, no, I want this to be able to feel like a choice to me now, then yeah, and this is what this particular person wanted. It was like, I feel like something's taken away from me. It was my vice, you know. I'm not, you know, I'm I'm an old I'm an older adult. I get the the health implications, but I wanted to do it. I was just afraid of panic and fear, you know. And I was like, okay, then what's your exposure? Yeah. Smoke a pipe.

SPEAKER_04 23:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

And they were delight, came back next day, like, I smoked a pipe. I was like, amazing. And you know, I think once I'm not your GP, I'm your therapist for an anxiety disorder. So let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Solid point. And then, like, before everybody gets the torches and pitchforks out, I would only amend to that. And this was your client, not mine. But if that person feels that they now have agency again to make the choice, they may in fact say, you know what? I'm glad I can do it again, but uh pipe smoking feels a little too unhealthy. I'm not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_03 23:51

But we both knew that as adult. Don't get me wrong, if you if you're working with children, yes, and you can do all these, but like this this person's 20 odd years older than me. I'm not gonna patronize them. Yeah, you're gonna be able to do that. Yeah, and obviously it was one of these I didn't I didn't didn't just start the episode the session with you need to start smoking your pipe. No, it was really listening and formulating actually this person had feels like they had stuff taken away from them. Yeah, and it's up to them whether or not they want to quit and this stuff because for what was important to them was to not live in fear and feel like nothing was taken away from them.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

Yeah, I think that's that's the key point here. It's like if you feel like you you cannot, you've you've lost your agency because the fear just took it away from you, then you gotta try and get it back, and then you can make an informed choice from there if you want.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

That's exactly what for the fifth time. I'm very passionate about that.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

I get it. You know, I think the other thing that comes up when we talk about nicotine, alcohol, you know, whatever, cigarettes and and cheeseburgers is that sense of failure. Because when when you're trying all of the things to manage what your body is doing and your mind is doing, which is an impossible task, by the way. Like nature was not dumb enough to give us full control over that. That would have been a disaster. But you're trying so hard to manage it by managing your consumption or lack of consumption of things, and it's not working. It's not working for you. Boy, that leads people into just darker places of like, I've tried everything and nothing works. I I have that, you know, when I practice now. It's like, well, well, tell me what you've tried. I cut out this, I don't drink coffee anymore, I stopped drinking. I only I eat a whole foods diet, I only have just whole grains, and blah, blah, blah. Okay, okay. And so what's going on? Well, I I still feel really anxious. And the conclusion they draw is this means that something is really wrong with me. Yeah, and I'm not even sure that I'm fixable at this point, or I'm a failure.

SPEAKER_03 25:37

I'm not doing it right. That's how anxiety disorders thrive, because they of the belief that there's something wrong with me. Yeah. And when your threat response is constantly observing you all day trying to fix yourself with your behaviors, because it is watching your behaviors, don't be surprised if the anxiety maintains itself. And then you start to feel a bit more hopeless. Right. This isn't working, nothing works for me.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Or sometimes this is, I think this topic is a good one too, because it leads us into you know your narrative. We talked about that a few episodes back. What's your anxiety narrative? And some a lot of people will start on a somatic narrative, which is the normal place to start. You feel in your body, you know what it is, you go to your doctor, check it out, what the hell's going on? I don't understand. This has never happened to me before. So, of course, you always start there. And then if you, for whatever reason, your culture, your beliefs, your identity puts you on that somatic path, that could be tough too, because now your belief system is being challenged. I believe that food is medicine, I believe that this is toxic and poison, like this is who I am. And it's not fixing my disordered thinking, it's not fixing my relationship with my emotions or my bodily sensations. Oh my goodness. That's another layer then. Like, oh, everything I hold important to me is now crumbling underneath me because my beliefs can't they aren't fixing me. It's almost like religion it in certain instances. I've seen it where it almost becomes like a crisis of faith. This is what I believe so strongly, and it's not working. And I'm ashamed that it's not working because I tell all my friends and family why they should only eat a veggie diet and it's not fixing me.

SPEAKER_03 27:05

Well, who's the our friend who conducts a lot of that? Oh, he is everywhere. It's Craig the critic. Yeah. Why haven't you fixed yourself yet? Why haven't you found the solution? It's obviously something you've done, so remedy it when actually the very act of doing becomes the tool that you used to used to beat yourself with and keep you on the hamster wheel.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

You know, I think the other yeah, it's true. And it will only he will only focus. Craig is only going to focus on the negative, always looking for let me find something wrong that I can pick on. And the other thing that I think that anxious minds do is for instance, if you're listening to this podcast every Friday, and if you are, we appreciate you. There's a good chance that you're probably trying to incorporate principles of willful tolerance and acceptance and mindfulness and third wave therapies that we talk about all the time. And at the same time, I am refusing to eat processed foods. Okay, cool. But interestingly, is it possible that you should get the credit for your improvement because of the changes that you're making behaviorally and cognitively and not the whole foods diet? Oh, yeah. But like the anxiety disorder, right? The anxiety disorder would be like, no, it was I stopped eating white bread and like my anxiety went away. Yeah, but you also listen to this podcast and you're in therapy and you read some books and you're practicing these things and you're really trying to make changes in your life, but clearly it must be. It was it was the no bread that did it.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

Such a good point. Press the applause button. Yeah, there you go. I mean, studio audience, please.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

Okay, thank you, everybody. Yeah, so like we give the credit to the not getting the credit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

Well, again, what was the variable that changed? Was it me and my effort? Yeah, no, don't be stupid. That's Greg the critic. Clearly. No, the variable was the I switched from white bread to brown bread, and therefore I feel better. Come on, man, wake up.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

I mean, it was you again the whole time. We could argue, I'm sure, that you might think that you just feel physically better without eating white bread, and that's fine, but like don't forget that if you are listening to us right now, there's a really good chance that you're making some effort of making other changes in your life. Give yourself a little bit of credit for that, man.

SPEAKER_03 29:26

Also, it goes down to the it does do nothing for your fear of fear, it's just good for your mood. I do those things for my mood. I eat healthy sometimes for my mood. I exercise for my mood. You know, I'm not drinking every day for my mood. You know, that's that's it. But if I'm doing it as a test, as a trial and error hypothesis to try and rid myself of my fear of fear, you ain't gonna go anywhere, you know. So do it for your food, do it for your overall wellness, but it isn't gonna do anything for your fear and misinterpretation of fear.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

I think one of the power, some of the power in like trying to eat healthy or making good, healthy choices that you think are in alignment with your values is just like choosing exercise or going back to socialize, even though you're terrified to do that. So I'm terrified to eat white rice. I feel like I'm only supposed to eat long grain, organically grown brown rice, or my brain is going to revolt, eat the white rice. Like that's a test. It's a it is a little bit of an exposure. And in the end, what you have learned to do is now I can use the brown rice as just something that's healthy that I do for myself. That's a positive thing. It's like exercise. Well, exercise is good for fixes your anxiety. It's also just something that you do for yourself that's good for you, that helps you build discipline. Right. It's not to try and fix your anxiety, it's just something good for me.

SPEAKER_03 30:48

Yeah. Well, non-anxious me would exercise, okay. But would non-actress you do it at 2 p.m. when you're really anxious and you you only want to do it now to get rid of it? No, no, you go to the gym at 5 p.m. So go to the gym at 5 p.m. Why are you doing why are you bringing that earlier? Oh, because I don't want to feel anxious. So it depends why you're doing it.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

And if we go back to your rule, what's it ABR? Anything but rumination?

SPEAKER_03 31:08

Anything but rumination.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

If there is a choice between sitting passively, either literally or figuratively, and doing nothing but scanning, checking, evaluating, ruminating, worrying actively, trying to manage yourself and going out to take a walk, or like going in your fridge and maybe tossing the drunk food because you're tired of feeling like crap. Cool. Do that, do the healthy thing, do the positive thing, take action to do something good for yourself because it's better than just sitting and thinking all day long.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

Oh, Sunday, oh, press the applause button. More more applause?

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Well, I'm being I'm being greedy now. I'm doing the queen wave, case and over two.

SPEAKER_03 31:44

Two amazing points. Um, yeah, absolutely. Two things I I I overlooked. Um, and again, yeah, it's it's you, it's being able to make the best. And yeah, if if you want to take positive action instead of doing the ruminating and the scanning, then go for it. You know, that's always gonna be good. Yeah, 100%. So, in conclusion, the the kind to summarize the episode to overcome anxiety, you need to make yourself a cigarette tobacco burger with processed cheese, uh, soaked in a highly potent alcoholic glaze. And what else am I missing here? You might want to sprinkle it with some cannabis. Yeah, 100%. And then go and eat that and then melt some cannabis. You want to become your excited.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

Yeah, just dunk it in brown sugar and then deep fry it. Like all the stuff. Sugar, deep fry it, just yeah, for sure. But I would tell you right now, like all the if if there was cold pizza in my fridge, I would eat it right now while we were recording it. I would I would eat that up. I now I want a cheeseburger, cold pizza is awesome. Like, these are just things that I like that I wouldn't eat back in those days. It was it sucked.

SPEAKER_03 32:51

So, yeah, getting that balance, and some of the joy is just yeah, doing that.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

Just by like, yeah, it's like gnawing on a slice of cold pizza at seven o'clock in the morning the day after is it's just fun. I'm sorry, just this. Maybe that's my rebellious dream.

SPEAKER_03 33:05

Who wants to live to 110 because they ate celery the whole life? That's what a sad way. I feel like the guy from Watchmen just on the moon, like, why did I do this? I should have just had that cheese book.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Would have been much better. Kind of life is celery anyway.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

But yeah. Um, should we look at our community? Thanks for that. It was a great um suggestion. Thanks to for Marty for inspiring that with his did it anyway slash question. Uh, what have we got in the bank?

SPEAKER_02 33:32

We have a couple of written things. We have an why don't you go with your written thing and then we'll do an audio and then we'll end with another written thing. I've got a question. Bring it. Me too. I have an audio question.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

Cool. Uh we've got two questions. Okay. Um this is from Celine. Hello, you can use my name if you use this. My anxiety disorder started about 12 years ago. It has been exhausting. I get a lot of somatic symptoms. It seems that one pops up, frightens me, I get it checked out. Sometimes it's actually something. So it's usually not as major as I fear it will be, but sometimes it's nothing. Often when it turns out to be nothing, the symptom goes away, and almost immediately something new will pop up. Why? As I said, this is so exhausting. It feels like it will never stop, and I'm stuck living this way. How do I cope with this feeling like it's never ending? And how do I cope when it turns out to be an illness or an issue? Also, I often cope with distraction. I feel like I'm constantly doing it anyway, but am I doing it anyway wrong because I feel like it's not helping? Thanks for everything you do, guys. I love your podcast. It really helps me feel seen and heard. Well, you know what, Celine? I'm gonna pass along an expert to you now. I'll answer that for you, Jabu.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

Um, this is gets a little, I think it gets a little bit tricky because again, you're allowed to make choices that you think are right for you in terms of managing your health. There's nothing wrong with that. We just care when those choices feel out of your control, or you must, I must call the doctor instantly every time I feel a new symptom. If you feel like it's out of your control and it's something that you're not like making a conscious, like aware decision to make, it just feels like you must do it to stay safe. Well, that's what we would probably work on. Like, okay, well, what exactly is the problem? Well, I had a little pain in my elbow and my brain is telling me that I'm developing a blood clot that's going to kill me. By the way, I did that once when I was really anxious. That was how I interpreted tendinitis in my elbow. But what if is this a thing that you think before you developed an anxiety disorder, you would run to the doctor for it? No, I wouldn't. I would probably wait a few days to see how it develops. Okay, can we try that? So that the win might be like stopping, dropping down a little bit into like, wait, am I doing it compulsively? Am I doing this in a sense of urgency to check this symptom? Or is this what I would have done in the past? I would look at those sort of things. It's okay to manage your health, you're allowed to do that, but are you doing it with a sense of urgency all the time because you're catastrophizing?

SPEAKER_03 35:58

Yeah, I would guess it's also an attention fixation problem as well. That's right. Uh, where the one where it's kind of using real life events to justify uh hijacking your attention. See, see, what something was wrong, but you even said, yeah, it was pretty minor, but you know, and also holding that possessing that metacognitive belief that only our anxious response is looking out for us. No, as Drew said, Yeah, you know, you might have noticed something, and then the rational brain would have gone, yeah, probably should probably get that checked out. The more you compulsively ruminate on catastrophes, what if it is something bad? What if that's there? And the more you body check and scan, the more that sense of urgency will stay. So my advice would be identify those compulsions, particularly if this is health anxiety, and health anxiety always relies on compulsions. And yeah, like Drew said, learn to incorporate some delay in there and work on your focus. And flexibility has been the word of the day. Can you be a bit more flexible with your attention?

SPEAKER_02 37:01

And I think in that, I'll just kind of wrap it up by saying these things come together. So I'm saying, well, first let's recognize the urgent, disordered, magnified, cognitively distorted, compulsive response. And then can we incorporate a delay? That's when I have to start to choose to open up and pick other options. What else is an option for me right now? Why am I elbow hurts, or while I have a new twitch in my leg? Well, I don't know what's important to me in my life. My kid has a soccer game coming up, or we're getting ready for Thanksgiving. I can go do the shopping or whatever it is you're doing. Like I'm finishing this puzzle, I love this puzzle that I do every night. Okay. How about you give your attention to things that are more than just the catastrophe in your brain? That's challenging, but that's the way I would approach that for sure. Great question. Thank you, Celine. It's a great question. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Celine. When you do incorporate a delay, give yourself some credit. Always. Yeah. Yeah. You winning. You got this, Celine. 100%. Um, okay, I have another question. So we'll play it because this is a really good, this is actually an excellent Craig to Critic question. Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Hey guys, thank you for everything. Uh my name's Chris. Um, I'm I'm calling in because I'm struggling with this thought of normal versus not normal. And for example, I deal with panic attacks and I'll be at a party with friends, and I'm happy, everything's fine, and then all of a sudden a thought starts to shock, and then I'm in a panic attack, and I leave, and I'm so scared that I start crying in a room for 15 minutes that I come out, have to pretend everything's fine. To me, that's not a normal thing, and I don't know if that's my brain not being normal, or if that's strictly just a stress-related response. Um, so I guess I'm struggling with this. I want to be normal, am I not normal? Or is it just a stress-related response that makes me go from being happy to crying in a bathroom for 15 minutes?

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Thanks, guys. Well, thank you, Chris. Appreciate the question. Tough spot to be in. Sounds like you're feeling pretty down on yourself. You can see why I said this was a Craig the Critic question.

SPEAKER_03 39:10

Yes, definitely a Craig to Critic question. I mean, uh challenge what normal is. I mean, I loved when I was training, I loved the concept of configurations of self. It was uh something by from humanistic psychology, it was uh Mearns and Thorne. They said we have different configurations of ourselves. When you say I want to be normal, what you're saying is there's a part of me that has emotions here that are not acceptable. Well, step one is why do you make them acceptable? So gay get teared up. I teared up now and then. I got teared, I got very tearful in the midst of my anxiety disorder. I was someone who used to go traveling around, flying everywhere to I couldn't even get walked to the end of my garden. And yeah, you know what? That upset me a few times, you know. But challenging the shame around it, and I'd look and explore maybe the shame. Maybe there's another layer to that shame too. You know, if you're crying constantly because of it, because there is that layer of shame, Chris, I'd be like, well, challenge that. Why why is it shameful? Do you feel like you're failing? Do you feel like you're failing through someone else's eyes? What is what is your um what's the what's the call? What's the word called? Um, metrics of success. What is your metrics of success of being a human? What just absolutely nailing everything, being normal, flying under the radar, or people pleasing? No, I challenge that. And I think you've been doing really brave, and sending that question in is very, very brave. And I think, yeah, Mr. Craig the Critic question.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

Yeah, is it is it normal? Is such a big question. And I think it's an automatically critical question. Is this normal? Well, in what context? I love this configuration of self, by the way. Do I get continuing education credits for recording today? I I I think I feel I should get some in in-service training. But I what is normal is such a big question that can never fully be answered, gonna change from day to day. Maybe, Chris, you're worried a little bit that like well people don't you don't generally see people in the middle of a party burst into tears. That's true. Excuse me. But so normal might be factoring in that way. But remember that humans are designed for a very wide range of experiences, like cognitively, behaviorally, physically, emotionally, including tears. And Mylant might not be preferred or statistically common to burst into tears in the middle of a party for no reason. That's true. But you are actually allowed to feel what you feel. But he did mention shock, by the way, which was great. So, like you know, in that situation, the mentioning of the shock Chris gets you also kinds of credit too, because recognizing I had a thought that scared me, and maybe my response to that feeling of distress that that thought created is tears. Okay, that might be your response to distress. Some people have that, it's okay to have that. Notice the shock though. That because I think that plays into like ooh.

SPEAKER_03 42:01

I've cried at a party, I've cried in incongruous situations, you know, sometimes, and particularly if you're in the middle of anxiety stuff, it's okay. Would recommend talking to someone though, because definitely, whether it's a talking therapist or whatever, if you've got a lot of stuff going on there, but it's not not normal. I remember crying at a party in particular. I just got caught off guard. I think I heard a song or something, just completely caught me off guard.

SPEAKER_04 42:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:23

Um, but again, if I'm walking around with this really strong Craig the Critic over my shoulder, I I want to know where that Craig the Critic was born, what informs it, why is he so powerful over me?

SPEAKER_02 42:34

And he may be picking on the wrong part of this equation. You might be asking, Well, you know, I why do I get so disturbed by the thought? Okay, that's a probably an easier thing to work on, then why do I cry? Well, you're allowed to cry if that's your natural response, knock yourself out. But maybe it's looking at that, like, oh, as soon as I got the thought, I get glued to it and I get sucked in by it, and then I get so distressed that I cry. All right, well, I can work on that cycle then.

SPEAKER_03 42:57

But it's okay. You're going through a tough time. It's all right, it's exhausting. If if particularly if you're anxious and you're bringing that anxiety to the party because it's part of your exposure and your recovery, yeah. Completely normal and human, normal and human to feel fearful, you know. Also, quite chant question the what normal is. Like I've started unmasking now with my autism, so I'll stand at a party and just flap my hand because that's my autistic stim. And I don't give a shit. I'm flapping, man. And that is not normal. Because I don't care, because it's normal to me, and that's fine.

SPEAKER_02 43:30

You know what? Very good. I I appreciate that. Let's let's wrap it up with one more did it anyway. It was a written one sent in. We didn't have permission to use the name, so we won't, but thank you, sender inner. Hi guys, here's a little did it anyway. Last weekend I was hanging out with friends, and one of them suggested going to a casino. I tried to get out of it, but they insisted saying we'd only spend an hour there. No, they're not, you know that. Um so here was an ERP opportunity for me. It was Saturday night, and I was going to a new, crowded, noisy place. As soon as I stepped in, I experienced my usual DPDR dizziness and unsteadiness to set in, but it didn't. Oh, I expected my usual dizziness to set in, but it didn't. Soon I was so engrossed in the games that I forgot to check my internal state. Uh I did remember a couple times and checked. I found I was a little derealized, but continued playing willful tolerance. We ended up spending over three hours there. See, I told you, nobody goes to a casino for now. And even stopped for pizza, yes, right in line with our junk food theme before heading home. No, definitely not. I was very exhausted by the end of the night, but very pleased at doing it anyway. I played small and safe and made a mighty profit of $7. Love this. Maybe I'll treat myself to a nice tea. Thank you both for all you do. Oh, that's so great. I love that one. Yeah, and it's so good. And and side note, for only $7, you can join the disordered inner inner circle. So, no, I'm kidding. Just not doing that. No, we're not doing that. But this is so great. Everything about this is really awesome. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 44:57

So, yeah, it's so good. Thank you. Yeah, uh, and thanks for everyone sending in their stuff. Um, keep looking forward to the round tables. We've put in a few more dates, I think. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 45:07

Um by the time this comes out, I'll hopefully we'll have announced the next one.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

So, yeah, exactly. We've just earmarked them out because obviously time differences of you and I, but yeah, we've um got them out sign up to the disorder.fm mailing list to be the first to know. Uh also we'll also send it out on our individual mailing list as well, uh, The Anxious Truth and School of Anxiety. Yep. Um, but yeah, um, thanks for tuning in every week. Thanks for the recent reviews, they really help. Got some nice organic new new listeners as well. And that's thanks to you guys writing reviews, tuning in every week, and we really appreciate. And um have a nice weekend. You're allowed to.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

We're out.

SPEAKER_03 45:43

We're gonna eat a cheeseburger.