Anxiety Recovery and Food/Eating (Episode 67)

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi guys, my name is Nick from Kansas City, Missouri. You can use my name. I really appreciate your guys' podcast and your help, and they've been a huge uh benefit for me. My question is more towards the food and eating side of it. I tend to get the symptoms of panic attacks or anxiety, and kind of get that warm, uneasy feeling. And for whatever reason, I've turned towards food to calm me down, which I think in in the in and of itself is me taking my mind off of the anxiety and eating. Now it's kind of caused an issue where I have like periodic times throughout the day that I have to eat. I feel like if I don't, it'll be chaos. Do you have any tips for that and how I can change that behavior and take it head on to try and get rid of those bad habits? I really appreciate you guys. Thank you so much for everything you've done. You guys have been a huge help. Take care.

SPEAKER_05 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 67 of the podcast entitled Anxiety and Food. We all eat, so we're going to talk about food today. I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist in training in New York with a specialization in anxiety and anxiety disorders, an author about anxiety and anxiety disorders, podcaster, clearly educator, advocator, social media guy, and a former sufferer for many years of my life.

SPEAKER_06 1:16

And I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in working with anxiety and anxiety disorders in Manchester in the UK. I'm a previous sufferer, co-host of this podcast, author of And How Does That Make You Feel?

SPEAKER_05 1:32

Welcome. What up?

SPEAKER_06 1:33

How are you doing, Drew? You all right? Uh I'm really happy not to stop pretending to be Dr. Stephen Hayes now. He's putting on that voice a lot. And you know, I really think I really captured who he was in the last episode.

SPEAKER_05 1:45

You really did. It was people thought it was a deep fake, but it was actually Josh. He rehearsed for months for that. It was outstanding.

SPEAKER_06 1:51

That was a really good episode. I'm so flattered that he joined us on the podcast.

SPEAKER_05 1:55

It really was. I got a lot out of it too. It was a great conversation. Let's talk about food. Do you have any uh like interesting like food and eating rituals when you were struggling back in the day?

SPEAKER_06 2:05

Oh, yeah. You know what? Like you said, we all eat, and obviously, when we eat, it's an opportunity for us to amend a variable or apply some kind of control. Uh people with anxiety disorders will have different relationships with food. Some people with anxiety won't eat because it makes them bloated or gives them heart palpitations. Some people with anxiety will hyperfixate on what they eat, you know, and start to cut things out. Like I I remember, yeah, I used to like cut out gluten, even though not celiac. Um, a lot of people with panic disorder will be afraid to not eat or afraid to become hungry because of the blood sugar shifts and it reminds them of panic symptoms. Um, we can go through a bit today. What about you? Did you did you ever have that?

SPEAKER_05 2:55

Yeah, I had a few of those. I would associate particular foods. Um, one story that I tell often is uh Chinese food for dinner one night, which is fine with me, except then I experienced some panic, maybe 20 minutes after eating, and boom, that was instantly glued together, and I did not eat Chinese food again for like four years. I just my brain told me like that caused it. That was the trigger. Chinese food clearly triggers you. Well, that's the shit. I love Chinese food. Yeah, I missed out on it for four years. I was wrong in that assertion, but I had that, and I had the um I gotta make sure that I have a snack with me because you know, my blood sugar is crashing, even though it was never crashing. I do not have blood blood sugar problems.

SPEAKER_06 3:37

The magic sweets, you know, yeah. And don't get me wrong, if you're diabetic, you know, take sugar with you, things like that. We're gonna look about the relationship with food in relation to anxiety disorders. Um, this doesn't apply to eating disorders. So if you're someone who is tuning in and you have a history of eating disorders, or perhaps you're in one now, um, just uh like a like a footnote, um, this episode is for more towards the relationship with experiencing anxiety itself. Um, if you do have an eating disorder, please go and get the appropriate help. Tell your doctor and work with an eating disorder specialist, uh, maybe in therapy. Um, but we're gonna just look at the we're not gonna cover that today because I don't have adequate training in working with eating disorders. But I do know the relationship with food and people with anxiety disorders.

SPEAKER_05 4:31

Yep, yep. Um, so I remember back in those days, I I can't say that I was fixated on food. Like, and and Nick, thank you for sending in the question to spark this discussion. It didn't become too obsessive for me, but it was a component. Like, you know, the eating, what I was eating when I was eating did become a part of my sort of like stay calm ritual, 100%. I'm trying to think, did it become super disruptive? I don't know if it did, but it was in there for sure.

SPEAKER_06 4:58

Yeah, I did the anxiety busting diet.

SPEAKER_05 5:01

Oh, I never did that.

SPEAKER_06 5:02

I had a yeah, I did the FODMAP diet because I was getting bloated, and then I was anxious over the symptom of being bloated. Yep. And I thought that, well, it must be the onions I'm eating or the style of food I'm eating. Actually, it wasn't. I was bloating anything because my body just didn't want to prioritize digesting when I'm constantly anxious.

SPEAKER_05 5:25

Yeah, yeah. I it's interesting. I never got caught up in that. I've always been a skeptic, you know. I've always been that guy. Like, I uh I look sideways at those sort of claims. So I guess I had a little bit of immunity. I didn't fall play uh prey to the whole like this is the diet that will banish your anxiety. Never did that.

SPEAKER_06 5:42

It's interesting though, because when we've ranted in the past about social media, if your anxiety disorder started now, oh geez, it would be hard to resist those those things. All these people on your on your feed saying, Yeah, I used to have anxiety, but now, thanks to you know, my diet of this and that and this super smoothie in the morning, and yeah, what is possibly the dullest plate of food I've ever seen in my life, help bust my anxiety. I I would have got caught in that as well. I did get caught in it initially, but I'd have been a sucker for it now.

SPEAKER_05 6:18

You're probably right, because those messages are much louder now and pervasive. And if you're gonna go on the internet and look for help, which uh who would blame anybody for looking for help, right? I'm looking for something that's gonna help me, you know, feel better, but you're going to encounter that. It's going to be in there. And some of it I think sounds so like I don't say aggressive, but like common sense convincing. You know, food, it's like it's we all you are what you eat, it impacts everything about you. It like it affects your health, and that sounds so convincing that it would be easy to get sucked into like, oh, the the food is causing my anxiety.

SPEAKER_06 6:52

Yeah, it's important to separate it as well, though, isn't it? Because like neutral people are into their nutrition, that's cool. Yeah, you know, look after your body, you know, know what you're eating. Um, that's all right. If you're doing it to erase symptoms of anxiety, then you're going into compulsive territory, aren't you? And I I've certainly one that's done that. Yeah. Oh, I hope there's not, oh, this food is high in such and such, or I must have magnesium-rich diet because magnesium is good for anxiety. Uh, all to try to kind of simmer down the fear of fear that I was experiencing. Honestly, I looking back, I was like, yeah, so regimented because it's the variable. Like your Chinese food was the variable, wasn't it? I'm anxious, I'm having a panic attack. What was the variable in that today? Ah, the la the last variable that I had control over was my chicken Chao Mei that I had before. Therefore, that's the variable that caused this. So I must change the variable.

SPEAKER_05 7:59

Yeah, because it's the it's an eat, you know what? Food, uh things that you eat or don't eat, you know, oh, I forgot to eat, uh, are so obvious we could see them. So it leads you into that lot. What is that? Post hoc, ergo, propter hoc. After, therefore, because of. Like that's a logical fallacy that every human being falls into. Look at me with Latin. I feel so smart this morning.

SPEAKER_06 8:19

But uh, you really step in this podcast.

SPEAKER_05 8:22

We are even Hayes, Steve Hayes got to your head.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

We're talking Latin.

SPEAKER_06 8:27

One episode, I'm not here.

SPEAKER_05 8:28

Yeah, and look at that. We get a highbrow. I'll make a fart joke in a minute. It's fine. I'll come back to Earth. But yeah, I I think it's easy because you can see what you ate. So it looks like a and that's an easy variable to identify. I ate an egg roll. I had a panic attack. Panic attack because of egg roll.

SPEAKER_06 8:46

Like, yeah, yeah, super easy.

SPEAKER_05 8:48

Like, you know, my anxious brain is gonna get sucked right into that.

SPEAKER_06 8:51

It's convincing, though, isn't it? I've I've had that like, oh, I ate that and it was that's what gave me the panic. Must have been it, you know. Uh, and obviously similar with like drinks and stuff as well. Like, oh, there was a little bit of caffeine in that and that cola drink I had. Yeah. And so therefore, that equals that. Yep, 100%.

SPEAKER_05 9:11

It was so easy to get sucked into that logic. Uh, it was really easy.

SPEAKER_06 9:14

Did so what was your first Chinese meal like when you when you finally decide to eat it again?

SPEAKER_05 9:19

I'm not gonna lie, a little bit nervous about it, even though I was well into the re into recovery at that point, but yet that thought is powerful, it's sticky, and it's like, you know, admittedly, I sort of had my fingers crossed a little bit behind my back, like, oh, please do not feel bad after eating this because I don't I don't want to lose this. And like uh I was fine, it passed quickly, but I had a little bit of trepidation about it. I'm not gonna lie, it's true.

SPEAKER_06 9:46

And now when Drew goes to the Chinese restaurant, this is all you hear. Lovely waiter comes over and she says, you know, can I take your order? And and there's about five minutes of this. Sir, that's more than enough. Sorry. I feel like we've neglected Billy Maze.

SPEAKER_05 10:07

I see him holding his phone, and I know the sounds that I created for your soundboard. I'm like, which one is it gonna be? I forgot Billy Maze.

SPEAKER_06 10:17

Keep it fresh, gotta keep it fresh, lowbrow. Um let's address more like Nick's question. So I think what I got from Nick's question is that I eat because it gives me outwards focus. Maybe it's a level of distraction, but also, and apologies, Nick, if this isn't right, but maybe it's like I remember having this that space before it was time to eat where you start to get hungry, you can feel the blood sugar changing, you feel lightheaded, I feel like cognitively not 100% there and focused. I used to hate that symptom, and it's a really common one I hear in my practice and have done over the years, is that I have to have food with me because the feeling of hunger triggers anxiety and panic. Did you ever have that?

SPEAKER_05 11:03

Oh, yes, I I absolutely did. To the point where I even went out and bought a blood sugar testing kit at one point. We'll get to that.

SPEAKER_06 11:10

But um Oh, don't get me started on those.

SPEAKER_05 11:12

And you know what? It turned out to be a good thing for me. We could talk about it if you want, but um, I actually did that because yes, hunger cannot allow hunger. Hello. I remember thinking at one point, I had to do I was gonna go see my doctor and he wanted me to do like a fasted glucose test. And I remember thinking, fasting? Surely you're joking, right? I I'm I can't go 12 hours without food. Are you out of your mind? Like I'll clearly like melt down into a mental health puddle. I can't have that. I was I was wrong, but yeah.

SPEAKER_06 11:44

Well, well, so when you got hungry, then you it triggers the the symptoms.

SPEAKER_05 11:48

Yes, I would immediately like, nope, I gotta eat something because I'm feeling a little bit hunger, and that can't, that's not allowed. Can't have that.

SPEAKER_06 11:55

Yeah. Mine used to like when I was hungry, it used to trigger derealization as well. Okay. So when I was hungry, feeling uncertain, lightheaded, and then I would yeah, I'd feel uncomfortable, which would trigger that derealization because it's a similar thing. And and I used to just be like, Oh, and yeah, I must eat. So then you fall into the safety behaviors and using the magic objects. So we did this in a very early episode of Disordered, so go check out the first what, 10, 15, I think it's in one of them. Yep. Where the magic objects getting the credits, you know, I would go out and I'd have to have my goody bag of stuff, uh, snacks, things to eat, just in case the the symptoms of hunger then triggered secondary fear. Now, don't get me wrong, if you're someone who doesn't have disordered anxiety or you're well down the path to recovery and you've just taken snacks with you, fair enough. I don't want to be hungry, that's fine. But if you're doing it because I don't want to be anxious, then that's when we know it's a safety behavior and it's a magic object.

SPEAKER_05 13:01

I think it brings up a really good point, like because nobody I would not argue that food doesn't have an impact. It does. Food can change the way you feel. Like caffeine is a perfect example, right? If we're gonna include things like coffee or soft drinks, you know, in food, it is. Like, yes, caffeine changes the way you feel. That it is true. That's not a lie. We're not trying to deny that. But there's a difference between caffeine, say, raising my heart rate, and being afraid of the rapid heart rate. Like, that's the difference, I think. So, like, yes, and well, if I don't eat a good diet, I feel like crap. I'm not saying you don't, you probably do, but people who eat junk food for two days, you know, on a on a party weekend and find that by Sunday night they feel terrible. Well, they wish they hadn't done that, but they're not terrified of the feeling terrible. They're not interpreting that as some sort of bigger problem. That's the difference here. Food can change the way you feel 100%. But are you afraid of how you feel and trying desperately to manage it because you're afraid of it? That's the key here.

SPEAKER_06 14:01

Yeah, don't fear the variable as such. Um, I remember you, I remember you talking about food. What if I suddenly developed an allergy for food I've had in the past?

SPEAKER_05 14:14

You want to hear a funny story though. I have, in fact, I don't know if I should tell this, but and you know what? This is reality. Like life works this way. I do have a mild avocado allergy now. If and I love avocado, I have loved it my whole life. But if I eat an avocado now, I'm gonna get tingly lips and numb and and you know, nothing bad. It's just mildly disturbing. And uh, and first time I noticed it about a year ago, I was like, can you even believe this? Because it made me think of all of the what if I'm allergic to.

SPEAKER_06 14:52

Oh my god, I know what I'm gonna send you for your birthday. Just a case of avocados.

SPEAKER_05 14:57

It's not bad, it's not horrible, but like, yes, here I am. Suddenly, after an entire lifetime, I did develop that's that mild reaction to avocado. Who knew?

SPEAKER_06 15:04

Oh, really? Yeah. Oh god, gentrification hasn't been kind to you. No, it hasn't. The avocado toast has just done me in.

SPEAKER_05 15:11

By the way, my avocado is usually in sushi type things, just FY, I'm not a hipster, I promise.

SPEAKER_06 15:16

So I actually had avocado this morning with eggs on toast.

SPEAKER_05 15:20

That's good. I mean, I I envy you a lot. I mean, you can eat it, it would just all tingle a little bit for 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_06 15:25

My lips didn't tingle because I can handle it. Some of us can handle our avocado.

SPEAKER_05 15:29

I can't handle my avocado anymore. But the what if I developed an allergy to is such a common thing in our community. I have no evidence, I've never been allergic to this. But not only do I worry that I might have developed an allergy to this overnight, I have developed a life-threatening, like, you know, I'm gonna need an EpiPen allergy. Anaphylaxis suffering. Oh, that's exactly right. Overnight I've developed this. These peanuts will kill me tomorrow morning, clearly.

SPEAKER_06 15:58

Yeah, or new foods. So if someone's gone on holiday and they're trying a different cuisine, what if I'm suddenly allergic to this? When actually what they're saying is, what if I panic and can't handle it?

SPEAKER_05 16:10

Oh, what if it makes me feel a certain way and I can't handle feeling that certain way? Or what if I just think I might feel a certain way and I can't handle the thoughts, and the thoughts drive me to panic?

SPEAKER_06 16:20

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's the one. Yeah. Um so Nick, when you're talking about that, what depending on your relationship with food, um, what I do what it does sound like is that the eating has become maybe um the safety behavior, no matter what without knowing more. So it's like if I'm you know, when I find myself anxious, I found that the safety behavior helps me to feel more relaxed. Um, and it sounds like you've already already identified that, hence why you sent in the question, which is good. Um, and I would recommend, you know, kind of just doing your playing with the variable a bit. If you are a bit anxious and you can leave eating for 30 minutes to sit with that uncertainty, to have an exposure to the symptoms, to maybe even be mindful with the symptoms when we spoke what like what we spoke about in the mindfulness podcast. Um, you know, that's something that I you know I would personally suggest doing. It's better when you're in therapy and you can take it with the therapist, but it, you know, not everyone can access it. And if it's something you'd like to see what happens, experiment with it a bit, don't rush, don't have that urgency to run to food when we're feeling anxious, uh, and and practice a little bit at a time.

SPEAKER_05 17:38

Yeah, that could be one of those things where, like, listen, and part of recovery, we've talked about this. You're eliminating the safety devices, the magic devices, like, but nobody just wipes them all out. Whether you have safe people or safety rituals or devices, we ultimately get rid of those, but we usually phase them out. So it sounds like, you know, again, we can't totally know, but it sounds like food may have either become a big part of Nick's coping or anxiety air quotes management, or just a part of a bigger set of rituals, which we all developed, that's fine. So I would say what Josh is saying is correct. Like, all right, this week I'm gonna see if I can target my eating habits. You know, uh I'm gonna wait 25 minutes, I'm gonna set my watch for 15 minutes before when I'm ready to eat, I'm gonna wait 15 minutes. Of course, if you have blood sugar, actual blood sugar issues and you can't do please take care of yourself. But if you just are afraid that you have to eat real right now, experiment.

SPEAKER_06 18:34

Yeah, and just make sure you get your nutrition of the day. So maybe play around with the times you eat.

SPEAKER_05 18:40

Oh, yeah, that's another good one.

SPEAKER_06 18:42

People who get very regulated. I did um I try I trialed kind of intermittent fasting and stuff, uh, just for morning energy and and workout stuff for workouts things, and but I still made sure I had the same calorie intake a day. Yep, yep. Yeah, you know, so it's important to keep your body nourished. Yeah, yeah. Um, that's very important.

SPEAKER_05 19:02

A lot of times it just becomes breaking the habits or modifying the habits a little bit. You know, I always eat eggs and toast for breakfast, so today I'm gonna have, I don't know, oatmeal and a piece of fruit. Captain Crunch. Oh, Captain Crunch will shred the roof of your mouth and then you're miserable all day. Um that's a good cereal though. But yeah, you know, like try just the week, you know, exposures, experiments, call them what you want, like mix it up a little bit, see what see what happens. Just know that if you do, you might trigger some discomfort, some legit discomfort.

SPEAKER_06 19:31

Expect boom. That's when the homework starts.

SPEAKER_05 19:34

Yeah, that's exactly right. No, no, no, you're supposed to feel bad if you don't eat right now. Afraid, you know, uncertain. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 19:40

So yeah, I remember doing it a lot actually, particularly when we went back to work, so using a lot more energy. And I would feel that I'm gonna be like, oh, this this reminds me a lot of feeling anxious, feeling spaced out, dizzy, lightheaded. Um, still okay, you know, function. I'm not gonna pass out. I'm okay, I'm hydrated. Uh, but I'd be like, oh no, I need to eat, stop this. And then I'd be like, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna leave it 20 minutes and be sit with a discomfort first, and then I'll eat. And then I'll probably enjoy my food more because I'm eating it because non-anxious me wants to eat it, not anxious me scrambling for safety.

SPEAKER_05 20:14

Yeah. I think another uh thing that could be useful if you're have uh uh having a problem like Nick is having, or you're heavily relying on food to save you, fix you, make you feel better, manage your anxiety, even just changing the way you eat. Mindfully, I think mindful eating is a wonderful exercise. Like, because anxious people who run to food for comfort or safety or rescue will often power it down. Like, no, no, I gotta get this in me right now. And you know, even the most the daintiest woman I've seen like get pretty nasty with a burger, like when that when anxious, and like I gotta eat. So it's okay though, I get it, because there's a sense of urgency in the eating. Like, if you what if you just slow your eating down? And like, no, no, I'm eating now because I have to fuel my body and I'm gonna see if I can enjoy this hamburger or whatever it is you're eating, as opposed to like just need to get it in me to save me, and like because I need the iron to keep me from panicking or whatever it happens to be.

SPEAKER_06 21:04

Yeah, I'm I always make a comment to my dog when he eats. I'm like, he just inhales it. I'm like, that is the least mindful eating I've ever seen, Strudel. What are you doing, man?

SPEAKER_05 21:16

Yeah, not even swallowing, you know.

SPEAKER_06 21:18

Yeah, just inhaling it.

SPEAKER_05 21:22

Sometimes it's that's a helpful thing to do with eating. Do you just change the way you eat?

SPEAKER_06 21:26

Yeah. Uh I mentioned this in an early episode, but I want to touch on it a bit more. Um, is it possible to recover from an anxiety disorder whilst eating a cheeseburger?

SPEAKER_05 21:37

Oh, it's a hundred percent possible. Oh I love that.

SPEAKER_06 21:41

It's great, isn't it? I love that. Yeah, that's a bit there's a bit of sage modern wisdom, you know, like, oh, my diet I'll never recover. No, you can recover eating. I mean, if you could choose, obviously eat healthy, look after yourself. Sure. But can you recover from an anxiety disorder, eating a cheeseburger? You certainly can. There's Big turning point for me when I stopped hyper focusing on what I was eating. So I always say do what non-anxious me would do. And like non-anxious me, you know what? I'd go out and eat Italian food tonight. Yeah. Because that's what non-anxious me would do. Yeah, if I get blowing tired, whatever, I don't care.

SPEAKER_04 22:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:15

I'm going back to what non-anxious me would do to teach my brain that I want my life back. Uh, and then it starts to work.

SPEAKER_05 22:24

Yeah. And you know, it's because this is I've been in this argument before. First of all, one of the funniest things that I always go back to when this comes up is one of the admins in my old Facebook group, lover, she would get super triggered by this argument because she will tell you, and still to this day lives on like candy bars and cigarettes. That's her. That's who she is. And she's like, I literally recovered eating nothing but like chocolate and smoking cigarettes. So don't tell me that it's not possible that I must optimize my body to get better because I 100% do not optimize my body unless she's optimized for coffee instead of cigarettes.

SPEAKER_06 23:01

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_05 23:02

I give her phone marks for that, so that always makes me laugh. But I've had people who will 100% argue, how could you say that? Like, you know, clearly, if you're eating junk food, then your body isn't going to be as healthy as it otherwise would be. And I'm like, that's probably true. But there's a difference between, like, yeah, my body isn't as healthy as it can be, and I'm afraid of my body. That's the difference. And anxiety is sort of being afraid of yourself, not about optimizing yourself.

SPEAKER_06 23:26

Yeah, yeah. And you got to be careful that toxic wellness thing that we look at. Uh, again, not taking a shower. Like, like if you wanna, if it really interests you to look after your body, do it by all means, it's great. Um, I I love it. I've been doing things like skincare stuff recently. I'm really interested in it.

SPEAKER_05 23:44

Oh, that explains the glow.

SPEAKER_06 23:46

Yeah, man. Uh that, and I'm seven months pregnant. And uh, I'm not, I'm not. That was England are playing. I had a few screw slaves, and uh um, no, but like for me, it's like, oh, you know, what's the best that I can do for my skin here? And I'm finding it really interesting, but I'm not doing it to uh oh shortcut anxiety and and negative feelings. Don't get me wrong, it has that secondary effect that you mentioned before, like, oh, I feel I feel quite nice. It it's a mood changer, not an anxiety buster. That's the one. Oh, a mood changer, not an anxiety buster.

SPEAKER_05 24:30

That's going to be.

SPEAKER_06 24:30

I'm eating well because my it makes my mood better, and that definitely happens. I found that when I eat well, sure, my mood is so much better. But I could eat celery and the most cleanest diet known to man, but that's gonna have nothing to do with my anxiety disorder.

SPEAKER_05 24:51

That's 100% correct. I love it because you know it's a it's a mood lifter, it's a it is a contributor to overall well-being. There's nothing wrong with that on so many different fronts. Yes, physically it has an effect, but also emotionally, mentally, you're doing something positive for yourself, you're being proactive, taking care of yourself. Like the benefits are many there, but that has nothing to do with the anxiety disorder. It really doesn't. It's supportive, no doubt about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you can do that healthily, then go for it. I mean, I would recommend it for sure because it's just a healthy thing to do. But I also think that that can start to become a little bit uh it can go swing too far because people with anxiety disorders tend to treat themselves like they're made of glass, like they're very fragile. And so the idea that, like, no, no, no, I can only exist in this very narrow range of like celery, carrots, and and skincare, that's not true. Like, you can exist in a very wide range. Some of the favorite accounts that I love on Instagram are like the anti-diet professionals, whether they're dieticians, they're nutritionists, they're doctors, like the anti-diet culture people, they promote such a lovely like message of like varied experiences, and like you can eat a lot of different foods, you don't demonize any particular food because the the diet flexibility helps foster psychological flexibility, which is recovery for us. So, like, oh yeah, yeah. If I take a chance and go out with my my buddies on Friday night and have a big nasty cheeseburger with bacon and fries and a couple of beers, like, is that ultimate for me? Yeah, just nasty. I mean, it's it's yummy, right? So, like, is it good for me? No, but guess what? I can have varied experiences that all have value in some way, shape, or form, and none of them breaks me because I can flex into all of them. They're contextual and they matter, you know.

SPEAKER_06 26:37

So I like that. I love that bit about flexibility as well. It's kind of yeah, yeah. It's it's good. It's one of those try not to fixate because remember, anxiety disorder people, OCD, panic disorder, inwards compulsors. Uh, you like to fixate, and some people fixate on heart monitor watches, sleep cycles. We spoke about that before on a podcast. Food can be one of them as well. Um, and pinning it, pinning it onto your diet. Uh, not helped by a lot of the stuff out there about the second brain, which Dr. Sula did an amazing description of on the IBS episode. What does that mean? Yeah, um, but I am into it. I do like studying that kind of stuff, only a lot a light, a light way, eating clean because my mood is better. I wake up, I feel in a good mood. But the analogy I want to use is you know, if you're afraid of dogs, you know, walking up to a dog, you know, eating an ice cream is not gonna make be any different to walking up to a dog with a kale smoothie. It doesn't matter, the fear is different. Yes, you probably feel you know, feel a bit better internally in terms of mood, but the fear response is still afraid of the dog. You're gonna have to do the exposure either way, holding your really boring lunch or your 12-stacked beef, whatever. It's true. It's like you're missing the mark a bit, if that makes sense. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 28:15

It does. Frankly, I'm more afraid of the kale smoothie than the dog. I forgot we had that. Um, yeah, I I hear that's a really good analogy. You're right. The fear is the same, the food doesn't change the fear.

SPEAKER_06 28:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's usually, again, sorry to do it again, but it's usually these lot.

SPEAKER_05 28:37

I had it queued up next because oh, sorry, yours is better audio quality. That's all right. Yeah, yeah, but I like the lower quality, it just adds to the production value to a certain extent. Like, these guys cannot afford a soundboard. No, we cannot. Sorry, you're correct. Listen to I want Dr.

SPEAKER_06 28:52

Stephen Hayes back.

SPEAKER_05 28:55

Um the regulation thing is you're right, because food like seems like such an odd if you are a regulator and you are that bought into that, like, no, no, I'm trying to regulate my nervous system and regulate my endocrine system and make sure my cortisol levels are staying. Changing what you eat seems like a really good way to do that. Even though I always love hearing the biochemists and the dietitians and the you know the nutritionists say, like, do you really think that that nature gave us the ability to somehow significantly impact our hormonal levels just by eating nuts versus like fruits? Of course it didn't. You're we're we're joking.

SPEAKER_06 29:30

There is something to it. We're nibbling around the edges, though. You know, there is something to it. Like I do feel more content and serene when I eat well.

SPEAKER_05 29:37

Oh, yeah, but there's so many areas of the thing.

SPEAKER_06 29:39

What was the phrase you said the other episode? Secondary happy secondary effect. That it's a happy secondary effect. I've not sat on some park bench, you know, staring at the swans in the lake, smashing cashews down my throat, and then waiting for the for the sereneness of my body to regulate. Yeah, it just shows. No, no, no. I'm more likely to regulate sitting there with a chocolate bar, yeah, you know, because like I'm enjoying this or whatever. If that does that make sense, like because like, oh, whatever. I'm not I'm not trying to prescribe myself regulation. Yeah, that's it. That's where people with uh anxiety disorders and the relationship with food is that they're trying to prescribe themselves with body regulation at times where they fear the anxiety or misinterpret it.

SPEAKER_05 30:28

Yeah, and I think we could also look at the difference. I mean, if you if you eat like crap for the next three days, you might wake up one morning and oh, I feel I don't feel so good, right? But the difference, if you look at like the delta between waking up in a good mood this morning because you've been taking care of yourself and waking up in a crappy mood in a few days because you've been abusing your body, it's relatively small difference as opposed to the difference between I'm feeling kind of neutral and I am terrified of every breath, heartbeat, thought, and sensation in my body. That's a huge difference. We are so far out of whack that I think it's weird. Like, yeah, you know, taking care of your diet and doing that self-care stuff, that's really good, but you're gonna get small changes, which is where we usually live. People with anxiety disorders live in huge swings of like, yeah, and that's just not gonna happen. So uh and also you need to get the credit.

SPEAKER_06 31:16

If it worked, you wouldn't get the credit. That's exactly right. Oh, thank god I had my I don't it's bad that I don't know many healthy foods off the cuff, does it? Uh I it's bad that I had my I don't know obigene in my wow oh no, you call it eggplant over there. Yeah, oh it's called eggplant. What's all that about?

SPEAKER_05 31:40

Eggplant. We will stick with eggplant, sir. So yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:44

Yeah, yeah, that's not that deserved an eagle screen. I think it's a French word. Uh yeah. Um, yeah, you want to get the credit. Oh. Like you don't want to be oh, because then you start to unknowingly facilitate longer-term safety behaviors and compulsions, and oh, I must have this. It's the same as the ice cube crowd.

SPEAKER_04 32:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:04

You know, don't be don't be taking ice cubes around with you.

SPEAKER_05 32:07

I think the other thing that I might add about the food thing is don't be fooled because food is natural. It's interesting because as I start to work with clients too, one of the things that we start to dismantle is like, oh, you know, all the conditions that they place. Oh, I've been doing my exposures, but the exposure is usually surrounded by a bunch of rituals that are designed to make the exposure go okay. And it's amazing how much food and drink and diet are built into those rituals, but we don't see them as rituals because it seems like, well, that's natural, so it doesn't count. Like, no, it does kind of count, even though it's it's fine. The food can't hurt you, you're right, because it's natural and probably healthy, but but the ritual still counts.

SPEAKER_06 32:41

Your relationship that's right. Because if you're if you're looking, yeah, if you're giving your food the side eye and the exposure, like, is it still there? Have I still got that safety object? Then you ain't gonna get the credit, and the exposure isn't going to get the maximum of its potential.

SPEAKER_05 32:55

And from an exposure standpoint, I would argue that the most effective exposure is the one after you've smashed the cheeseburger and the fries and and you've taken a huge risk, like caution to the wind, man.

SPEAKER_06 33:05

Here I go. I did that. I ate a whole pizza once as an exposure because I get heart palpitations after it, you know, because my whole body's just like, what the hell have you done? Uh and I'd be bloated, the acid reflux, the chest pains. Uh, it was just one pizza. I wasn't going through the whole restaurant, but like it's I just knew it would bloat me and give my body a shock that I've been avoiding.

SPEAKER_04 33:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_06 33:29

And yeah, eating was the exposure, you know. Um, but yeah, that just came back to me then. Um, but yeah, food there. We can we can always get some experts on at some point, that'd be nice. Yeah. Uh, and actually look at the role of nutrition, which would be pretty cool. I'd be interested in that.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

Sure.

SPEAKER_06 33:45

Um, should we listen to some community wins?

SPEAKER_05 33:48

Let's do it. We have a did it anyway. We have a question. Let's say that to the for the end. We'll do a did it anyway. How's that? Cool, yeah. Let's play it. Uh, let's mute this one so we're not playing it too. But the editing on that was spectacular. They were perfectly in sync. So, all right, here we go.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Hi, Jre and Josh. My name is Abby. Feel free to use my name. Just want to share Did It Anyway. Um, been suffering with panic disorder, um, some monophobia, generalized anxiety, all the things for about a year now. Going through my recovery and doing a lot of exposures, but a couple months ago my fiance went away for a few days and I had a really hard time with it. I was having a lot of panic attacks and just really struggling being home alone. This past week, he went away for six days, and I was nervous about it, nervous about having panic attacks and not having anyone there to help me, but I got through it with minimal anxiety. Um, you know, I went to work, I went grocery shopping, I did my normal things and just live my life, and it feels really good that I can just go about my life without having to stop and and panic. I really feel like I couldn't have done this without you, even though I am trying to give myself the credit. But I just want to say thank you, and the work you guys do is amazing. Woo! Love it. Love it.

SPEAKER_06 35:18

Do give yourself the credit, definitely, definitely. We just we just point you in the direction, but you've got to do it. Yeah, well done. Favorite part of that. I love the bird. Oh, the birds.

SPEAKER_05 35:28

Yes, I was gonna say we did not put the birds in, those were all natural. It was really good. Yeah, where are you? In the Garden of Eden. Evidently. It's amazing. Um doing my exposure in the Garden of Eden. My favorite part of that is like, you know, that for anybody who's dealing with the monophobia, I think we've talked about monophobia. I think we did an episode on it. You know, what seems impossible or what seemed impossible to this person became possible. Like I can't turned out to be incorrect. I love that. You know, I love that. Yeah, yeah, and that's what we learn over time. So good job, and thanks for sending it in.

SPEAKER_06 36:02

Well done. Uh, I've got a written Did It Anyway here. Let's hear it. Uh Hi, gentlemen. My name is Sean. You may use it, and I just wanted to share a somewhat different did it anyway that I did recently. I was going to have this recorded, but I got emotional each time I speak about it. Okay. I have had driving anxiety for some time now, especially being a passenger and not having control. Last week, my wife and I went to visit my son and his family out of state for a birthday party. My 16-year-old granddaughter has had has had a learner's permit and is learning to drive, and I had to run a few errands prior to the party. So I thought, okay, here is an opportunity for an unplanned exposure. After we made a few stops, I decided to let my granddaughter do the driving home. I sat in the passenger seat and let her drive the 25 minutes back to my son's house. Was I anxious? Certainly, but I let it happen and was fine. She did a fantastic job driving and seemed quite happy that I did this with her. Not only was it a great exposure, but a nice moment I got to spend with my granddaughter. And to top it off, she told her mother that of all the people she has driven with, and that's a mum, a dad, a stepdad, and driving teacher, I was the calmest and coolest. Imagine that. Anyway, thanks for this podcast and everything you guys do. It's been quite helpful to me. Keep up the great work.

SPEAKER_05 37:34

Oh. I loved that even Sean. He was the calmest I love of all of them.

SPEAKER_06 37:40

Yeah, I love that, Sean. Well done. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_05 37:43

What's a driving instructor look like? Is he like a white knuckled and just terrified? You're doing great.

SPEAKER_06 37:50

Well, well done, Sean. And again, you'd have made a lovely memory there with your with your granddaughter and uh and proved your yourself and the anxiety wrong. I think that's brilliant. Love it. Um we got time for a question.

SPEAKER_05 38:02

We do. Can I point out that Sean moved away from fear and toward his values?

SPEAKER_06 38:07

Oh, here he goes and values.

SPEAKER_05 38:09

Lovely values, man. Yeah, good job. Um, yeah, we do have a question, so it's an audio question. Let's play it.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Hi, Drew and Josh. This is Laura, and I'm happy for you to include my name. Uh, thank you so much for the podcast. It is helping me so much. I try to remember the phrase, what would unanxious you do? You know, um, that's something that has been helping me lots. I tend to overthink it though. So, right now, for example, I am debating whether I'm going to make myself a cup of herbal tea. And my mind is sort of going, wait, do you actually want a cup of herbal tea just because you enjoy it, because it's nice to unwind with? Or are you trying to benefit from the relaxing properties for anxiety prevention's sake? So basically, I'm not sure what I'm trying to achieve. What is the true intention? Because I'm overthinking it, and I tend to do that with a lot of things. I really struggle with seeing my true wants now, if that makes sense. Anyways, uh, thank you so much again and have a lovely day. Bye.

SPEAKER_05 39:20

Excellent question. What do you think? Don't put it on me. You do it. Oh, I do it. Now I'm in the hot seat. Okay, you know what? Have the herbal tea, and if you did it wrong, you did it wrong. Deal with that. Like, I think the best way to break this cycle is to just make the wrong choice sometimes. That might happen. Don't know what I really want right now, but guess what? Regardless of the outcome, I can deal with that.

SPEAKER_06 39:44

Yeah, it's uh it reminds me of the uh oh no, somebody call the ruminator.

SPEAKER_05 39:50

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 39:51

Yeah, it's just like like there's a problem and you're making tea, and then there's a step there that doesn't need to be there. You've called in the ruminator to help you. And the ruminator's come in and gone, why are you doing this? Are you doing this because it's avoidance? Maybe you're not doing this perfectly. Is this anxious recovery? Maybe it's not. What are the properties of the herbal tea? If you drink it, is that is that successful? Is it not? Are you doing it to calm? You're not doing anything. No, that's the ruminator. Boring. Just make the tea, see what happens. Like Drew said, uh, cut identify when the ruminator comes in and tell him to go away. Because I'm just gonna get into a flow of doing things. Um, if you want to give yourself five seconds of analysis, be like, well, if I want to do something here, maybe maybe I used to drink caffeinated tea, so I'll make a caffeinated tea and see what happens, you know. Um, it doesn't sound like you're doing bad at all. It sounds like you're in a good place. Just watch out for that rumination, just make a tea. It's nice. You don't need to do that, you don't need you don't need to hyperanalyze every step.

SPEAKER_05 40:53

Yeah, if you have turned, you know, one one of those useful tools that we give people would be like, oh, I noticed that I'm having thoughts about this tea. I'm making my tea and now I'm having thoughts about it. So I'm making tea and then I'm thinking about making tea, and then I'm thinking about my thinking about making tea. So like if your thoughts and emotions have suddenly turned into something you think you have to decipher or solve, it's a really good sign that it's time to just continue on and leave it unsolved. Like thoughts and emotions are experiences to have, not problems to solve. That's a good rule of thumb. If you're trying to solve how you feel, probably don't need to do that.

SPEAKER_06 41:28

Yeah. Also be aware of the perfectionistic traits in recovery. Yep. I'm getting my intuition's telling me that. Um, am I doing everything perfect? Why am I doing this? You're allowed to just exist, you know, keep your attention external. Uh non-anxious me might have a tea. There we go. Non-anxious me might have a tea right now. So if non-anxious me might have a tea, then I'll have a tea. I guess I'll have a tea.

SPEAKER_05 41:52

Yeah. And what if it's what if I'm doing it to like try and calm down? Okay. Like it's okay. Like, just you know, whatever the whatever happens after that tea happens after that tea. You'll deal with it as it happens. It's totally fine.

SPEAKER_06 42:04

Yeah, yeah. Try not to get stuck in the rumination trap. Great question. Thanks. And and thanks for uh taking Drew and I to the recovery group. Um, I like that. It's really nice. It's it's it's really nice to hear that that's that.

SPEAKER_05 42:17

And it sounded very refined when she said, like, I have a group of ladies and we get together and talk about recovery. I had edited out of the question, but it sounded very refined. I feel like, oh, I should be there drinking tea with my pinky app. Anyway, thanks for stopping by to listen, guys. If you want to send in a did it anyway or ask a question, you can go to disorder.fm. All of the goodies are there. And maybe we should ask him to like rate the podcast to review it or something. I don't know. What do you think?

SPEAKER_06 42:42

Yeah, yeah. Thank you to all those who have uh rated the podcast on Spotify and on on uh Apple Podcasts, etc. We really appreciate it. Yeah, drop us a voice mail or an email, disorder.fm, like Drew said. Give us a follow on socials, anxietyjosh, the dot anxious.truth. And uh yeah, we'll uh catch you soon and thank you once again. It's always a pleasure. Yeah, see you next Friday. We're out of the way.