Anxiety ... Without Judgment? (Episode 96)

SPEAKER_01 0:06

I really appreciate your programming. I find it really helpful. I'm reading Sally Winston's book Overcoming Anticipatory Anxiety and she talks about observing what's happening, making no judgments, and then leaving it alone. Similar to what you're saying. But I'm wondering about the word making no judgments. What does it look like when you are making judgments? And what does it look like when you're not making judgments? Thanks so much for what you did.

SPEAKER_05 1:07

Today we're going to talk about anxiety without judgment. Really good question there, and apologies to the backdrop to the nineteen ninety-five Danny Cannon and Sylvester Stallone movie hit Judge Dread. A film that is utterly terrible, objectively, but why have I watched it multiple times? I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist, author, and previous sufferer of anxiety, and I specialize in anxiety. Podcast co-host, Instagram prancer arounder, and person who's really passionate about talking about anxiety disorders.

SPEAKER_04 1:45

And I am Drew Linsolata, the guy that produced that ridiculous opening video audio montage. Also a psychotherapist in the US and New York, specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders, former sufferer of these very same problems we talk about all the time, but better now. I've written books, social media content, advocacy, education, the whole nine yards. But today, audio engineer and just having such a good time with it.

SPEAKER_05 2:07

So he did such a good job with my fun. Um Yeah, what a good question.

SPEAKER_04 2:16

Excellent question. I think it speaks directly to the but how. So when you hear guys like us talk all the time about willful tolerance and surrender and allowing anxiety, and you want to know, but how, I think this episode starts to give you hints of what those first steps, if there are actually steps, will look like. And it's it's eliminating the judgment. What does that even look like? And why did we why do we go with the I am the law drop your weapons thing? What's that all about?

SPEAKER_05 2:41

Because it the because it actually, believe it or not, it's not just both of us clowning around. There is something to that. There are lessons to be learned from Judge Dredd.

SPEAKER_04 2:51

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 2:52

Um, which we will tenuously weave throughout the book throughout this episode. Um, yeah, we'll talk about what anxiety with judgment looks like and what it looks like without judgment. Um but before we get into the the the meat of this baloney sandwich, um what's uh what's been happening in the community? Well we got a did it anyway, so all the way from Australia, so let's hear it.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Hi Drew and Josh. My name is Jenny and I'm from Australia. You can use my name. I just wanted to share a did it anyway. I was due for my eye checkup to get new glasses and completely dreading it. I postponed it three times but decided to just be brave and go for it today because I need to be able to read stuff and see properly. I went in there shaking, worried with all the feelings. At one point I said to the optometrist that I was feeling anxious, and she said, Oh, I didn't notice. Anyway, I did it, got to the end of the appointment, chose my date in the shopping centre instead of running out screaming, and had a coffee and donut to celebrate, and I did it anyway. Thanks, guys. You've been so helpful.

SPEAKER_05 3:57

Outstanding as well. Coffee and donut as well as a vic as a victory snack. Well done.

SPEAKER_04 4:03

Absolutely. Instead of running out screaming. Good job, Jenny. Too bad there's a podcast. You can only listen, otherwise, Jenny would be able to see us with her new glasses and her improved vision. Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:14

I remember um at school, uh, it won't surprise you that I was bullied quite a lot when I was younger. And I remember the day I received glasses, I was about 11, and um I walked into school, and my bullies weren't the most intelligent of people. And I stood there and one of the bullies came over and he said, Oi, Josh, why are you wearing glasses? And I turned very dead, Pan, and said, Because my hearing isn't very well. And I still think he stood in the yard to this day trying to compute what my answer was. Um, um, so yeah, I mean, that there's a useless anecdote for you to uh to reflect on today.

SPEAKER_04 4:56

Hey, if you made it 96 episodes in, you get to know us a little more. And there's another piece of the Josh puzzle falls into place. It's all good.

SPEAKER_05 5:04

So what does uh anxiety with judgment look like, Drew? Should we give some examples? I think so.

SPEAKER_04 5:10

For me, I think anxiety with judgment, first of all, I want to say we are judging all day long. Human beings are in the business of judging all day long, liking and disliking, wanting, not wanting, loving, hating. Like we are constantly evaluating and judging our experiences. And I think judgment and anxiety is I hate this. True, nothing wrong with that. I don't want this, I need to get rid of this. This means ah, or I think it might mean what does this mean? Why is this happening? What's going on? I need to know more. I think judgment is a complicated thing, it's essentially evaluation. Am I I gotta evaluate my anxiety to see what it feels what it means, what's gonna happen about it, and why is it happening? And I need to keep resisting it because I hate it so much. So I think judgment and resistance are almost synonymous.

SPEAKER_05 6:01

Yeah, yeah. Just to add to that, uh, I'm anxious on doing something wrong. My DPDR is there, so it means I have to fix it. Um, you know, my my heart is palpitating, so I don't like that experience. Um I this intrusive thought keeps coming, and I shouldn't have these thoughts because that doesn't make me a nice person. What does that mean? The uncertainty. Or just generally, when I was struggling with anxiety, is oh go away. I hate you, I hate this anxiety. This shouldn't be here. We would probably encapsulate most of most anxiety disorders.

SPEAKER_04 6:42

I think it's difficult because people were like, oh, then you have to just you're just saying you learn to not care. No, not really. Because you can care, you're allowed to care. So a certain amount of judgment is always gonna be there. You're allowed to have an opinion. I don't like this. You don't have to pretend to like it or ignore the fact that you don't like it. But I think the judgment is extends beyond that. Instead of this is happening and I don't like it, which is a statement of fact and perfectly reasonable, this is happening, I don't like it, and now I'm gonna add to that story with more judgment and evaluation. What if you just stopped at this is happening and I don't like this, or this is happening and this is terrifying? Stop. That's it. End of the story. That's the end of the narrative.

SPEAKER_05 7:21

Yeah, yeah. Um it's uh it reminds me of um when Dave Carbonell says um Uncle Argument, like, yeah, okay, your uncle is really annoying, you don't like him, but you've got to sit at the family meal and tolerate him. And Uncle Argument is always just trying to argue with you no matter how true you are, or whatever. And he wants you to engage, he wants your attention, he wants to have an argument. It's called Uncle Argument. Uh, without judgment, is I accept Uncle Argument's gonna be there. I accept I don't really like him, but I don't need to engage with him because it's just gonna ruin my meal. So I'm gonna try and tune him out. Um, yeah, without that judgment, it's it's a lot to do with Craig the critic as well. You know, judgment is often driven by our inner critic. What does the anxiety mean about us more? Um, but ultimately, yeah, looking at anxiety without judgment is synonymous with when I bang on about willful tolerance or when we surrender to anxiety. It's okay, I'm gonna go and do the scary thing and be scared, and I'm not going to judge that because that's my homework. But if I go and do the scary thing, be scared, and then don't like that I'm scared and hate it and think it's something bigger than it is, then I'm feeding into it. I'm engaging with it and it remains a thing.

SPEAKER_04 8:47

Yeah. I I think the judgment, it could be in the resistant response, I'm trying to fix it or get rid of it. Sometimes the judgment is centered on, but why is it happening? And now I'm gonna judge the fact that first I'm judging it by I need to know why it's happening, even though that's never been helpful, but I'm gonna keep insisting that I need to ask the question, then I'm gonna judge myself because I can't answer the question. Well, I don't understand why can't I figure this out? Why can't I figure this out? I should be able to figure this out. I'm doing it wrong, I'm missing something, I'm not smart enough to figure this out. I'm too weak, I'm in denial. Judgment, judgment, judgment, judgment, judgment. So like it can it shows up in every part of that anxiety experience from the minute you have that first little twinge and your you know agitation level goes up to the when it dissipates and you're back to like eating your baloney sandwich. We're really fixated on baloney on disorder these days, and and it's over and you're back into like your regular like life stream, then it there's judgment all the way through. And learning to recognize the judgment is the first step. Because a lot of people listening are gonna be like, Oh, I do do that. Oh my goodness, I do that. I do that.

SPEAKER_05 9:57

It's interesting as well, because one of the synonyms with anxiety is to describe anxiety is dread, and you are judging that dread. Oh my goodness. Mic drop moment. I did not see that coming. I told you there was tenuous links. That's number one. Wow, very good. And what would Judge Dredd say if you were judging your dread, Drew? What would he say?

SPEAKER_04 10:21

Yeah, and I think we we use the I am the law because first of all, we're just juvenile and we enjoy it, but second, I think it's uh this is happening now, and when we don't have to talk about this. So, like the this is not a discussion that has to happen between you and you. And I think I see one of the interpretations I would put on the I am the law part of the silly judge dread quote is we don't, I understand this is happening now. We do not have to talk about this though. This is not a topic of conversation between you and you. Like, no, I'm putting my foot down. Scream all you want. I am the law, we're not talking about this. But it is in fact happening, right? It's happening that's true. It's happening, but we don't have to discuss it. Like Uncle Argument. He might be had a few too many drinks and he wants to like engage you, but you could turn your back a little bit. Still hear him, still hear him, but no, we're not talking about this. And I think the I am the law insistence is because your anxiety doing its job is no, no, no, this is important. We need to talk about it, it says to you. No, we're not talking about it. And it helps you refrain from the judgment. This is happening, and we're not talking about it now. End of story. That's it.

SPEAKER_05 11:30

And to drag this analogy out, he also says, drop your weapons. And what would our weapons be in response to this? We've got anxiety, we don't like these feelings, we don't like these thoughts, we don't like these sensations, we don't like anxiety as a whole, we think it's something we have to fix. What are the weapons that we use to mistakenly use to try and fight it?

SPEAKER_04 11:52

Oh, the weapons would be the safety behaviors, the soothing behaviors, the tapping, the ice packs, the mantras, this too shall pass. I am a warrior, you got this. The safety people, call your mom, call your girlfriend, snap a rubber band, like think happy thoughts, count backwards from 100 by threes. Like, those are the weapons. And drop your weapons, says Judge Dredd. You better listen, man. He's pretty bad. Pretty badass. Just saying.

SPEAKER_05 12:17

Yeah. I I honestly uh when looking back through history. Um, Claire Weeks, step aside.

SPEAKER_04 12:23

I think Judge Dredd is he might be the new model for this. And he had all those crazy like pads and like those credit like Michael Jackson like shoulder eplets thing going on in 1985, and that tiny little microphone.

unknown 12:36

What's that all about?

SPEAKER_04 12:38

Like, give Judge Dredd a bullhorn or something, man. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 12:42

Okay, so I'm in this I'm in the shopping mall, I struggle with agrophobia, and I'm out with friends, and suddenly I feel my face get flustered, I feel hot, I feel sweaty, I feel this urge to run away. What does treating that without judgment look like?

SPEAKER_04 13:02

This is a tough one because it's hard to do, but when you listen to the rest of the episode, try and suspend the part, yeah, but this is so hard. We get it. That's blanket acknowledgement here. But just because it's hard doesn't mean it's impossible. So what does it suspending judgment mean? I think it means with first you have to acknowledge the reality. This is happening now, right? So when you get to the point where your face is flushed, there's chemistry involved, too late. It's already happening. You cannot just flush the chemicals out of your bloodstream, you can't just instantly stomp on it. It's gonna have to play out. So I like to start the lack of judgment or the dropping the judgment with first a building of awareness of reality. Can you describe what's happening right now? I'm out with my friends, I'm in a challenging situation, and my face is really hot. That's what's happening.

SPEAKER_05 14:01

Also, expect it to happen as well. The expecting helps with the judgment of stuff. So, for example, like last week I was in the gym and I dropped a weight on my foot. Ouch. Um, it was 170 kilogram weight as well because I'm so ripped and hedge. Uh, it wasn't. And I dropped a uh I dropped uh a weight on my foot, and then in the morning, my foot was hurting. Now, I'm not judging that because I know why it happened. I expected my foot to hurt in the morning, and it creates discomfort. Now, I've got two options there. I can lie in bed and stare at my foot and go, why is it hurting? Why is it not going away? Why isn't the ice pack working on it? Why is it not that? I've tried stretching, I've tried meditating, but my foot's still hurting. Or without judgment, is well, yeah, I expect it to hurt because that's the situation I'm in. And if you're in a sensitized, anxious state, yeah, there is a part of I'm gonna just have to exp accept that I'm gonna be anxious in these situations. So what's the point in judging it? Because that's my anxious body is doing anxious body things, and I'm on the way to desensitization. I can't expect urgency and immediate ceasing of all anxiety. So without judgment, is yeah, I'm gonna go to this place and panic and and feel doubtful and until it passes. That's the key. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:23

And if you can't, I think in a way, you hear people talk about like leaning in. Okay, well, then you just have to start to lean in. You want to get away from the experience, right? I'm I'm afraid or I'm having a scary thought. What does that mean about me? I want to get away from that experience. But people like us will often use the phrase lean in, or sometimes you hear like you have to learn to be a curious observer of the experience. And to me, that starts with literally being able to just objectively describe what the experience is, not what you think it means, not what it feels like, not what you're afraid is going to happen, not trying to explain why it happened so you could feel better because you can find a cause. This is happening now, is a powerful thing. I I use that with my therapy clients. Let's adopt the phrase this is happening now, and that's it. So you know, there's no nothing else to say. This is happening now. Oh no, it's happening. Oh no, I was gonna I hope I wished it didn't. I want it to go so well today. You don't, but but it is happening, so you gotta start there, or you're gonna judge, judge, judge and resist.

SPEAKER_05 16:21

Oh no, I'm relapsing and going back to square ones is never gonna get over this, whatever. You're judging the experience. It's just happening, you know, it doesn't matter, you know. Yes, okay, it's easy to say it doesn't matter and stuff. And we know firsthand what it feels like very acutely, yeah. But it's that without judgment, and it's so helpful for those who've perhaps come a long way in their anxiety recovery, and they become resensitized again. Have you noticed that people that become resensitized see the experience with utter judgment? Yes. So you've got to a place of recovery, and I've re-sensitized myself, but don't use the word relapse, but you know, I've I've got to a good place and then I became resensitized again. Oh no, I'm back here again. But have you noticed the key difference? Is that I was willing without judgment to be anxious the first time. Yeah, then a part of my brain was like, Well, I've solved that now and it's shelved, so I don't want to have anxiety again. And lo and behold, a few years later, when stress builds up and my misfiring threat response goes off in the middle of nowhere when I wasn't expecting it, it comes with full judgment.

SPEAKER_04 17:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:30

Oh, I thought that bit was gone now. Why is this back? Why am I still not fixed? Why am I and that's where the judgment part is so important?

SPEAKER_04 17:41

I think once the judgment, like once it gets its hooks in in a given situation, then it will run rampant. So it might start with for the person who's been feeling good, for instance, which is awesome, but then they have a bad day. Why is this happening? Is a form of judgment and resistance. And once you start to try to answer that question, all the other little judgment worms will come out of the soil and start to run around also. What does it mean? What's going to happen? Am I safe? What, you know, what am I going to have a heart attack again? You start to go down the whole thing where you were like a year ago or two years ago. The difference is when you're further down the road, you can start to recognize, oh, I'm doing it again. I'm doing that thing again. And that's usually when you're when you've learned to recognize your judgment and your resistance. This is where mindfulness stuff comes in. And I'm about to do a whole mindfulness thing. This is where mindfulness comes in. When you hear people talk about mindfulness and meditation, it's learning to watch your judgment, is what it is. It's just, it's not calming, it's not soothing, it's not zen, it's not anything. It's just, can I watch this machine working? I use that's another analogy I use in therapy all the time. Like, can we learn to watch the machine work? Because if you can watch the machine work all day long, I like, I don't like, I want, I don't want, yes, no. Like we're always judging everything when you can learn to watch that work. You can catch your judgment quicker even when you're anxious, but you can't just do it only when you're panicking, only when your OCD is flaring up. You gotta practice it a lot. And there's kindness, there's self-kindness in that. Like, can I just be with my experience? Am I allowed to do that? Or do I have to fight it every step of the way, which is not fair to you? There's a lot. That was a rant.

SPEAKER_05 19:19

No, no, it makes so much sense. And it's one of the biggest misnomers around meditation and mindfulness, isn't it? It's like, oh, I tried mindfulness, it didn't work. It's like, no, you're practicing non-judgment.

SPEAKER_04 19:31

Right.

SPEAKER_05 19:32

Yeah, but I did my I did mindfulness and now I'm more anxious. I'm like, well, you're judging. Like a good mindfulness session isn't about trying to calm or clear your mind. Yeah, it's about observing whatever happens in your brain without judgment. So sometimes you'll come out of a mindfulness session and you'll feel more anxious. But if you've done it properly, you're like, that's interesting, you know. But I observed and I practiced, you know. So and then you'll do another mindfulness session where you're like, oh, I'm calm. Observing that without judgment, too, not making calmness the holy grail of everything, yeah, is really important. So yeah, observing that again, we say a lot on this podcast, but enhancing that metacognitive awareness is so important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:17

I think the fact some people try to say, like, well, the judgment is automatic. The thoughts are automatic. That is correct. That when I tell my clients, let's watch the machine, learn how you know, watch, learn how to watch the machine instead of hopping on it and riding it all the time. The machine turns on by itself. So if there's a perceived threat, the part of you that you can't control will click on and boom, the machine turns on, and it wants to start generating judgments and resistance and escape. So that part is in fact kind of automatic. And sometimes people are like, well, since I can't turn that off, I have to judge. I have no choice. Well, you guys are crazy. How do you not judge this? I hate this. I know. So the automatic judging machine does turn on. You don't just don't have to always jump on it and go for a ride. So the a good mindfulness session is like, oh my God, my brain wouldn't turn off. It was just constantly going. Like, good, did you watch it? Because then you start to see, like, holy, I am a thought-making judging machine all day long. This is how I work. Okay, I can work with that. If I can see it, I can work with it. If you if you just think it's who you are and there's no other choice, you got a problem. You're gonna have a hard time with like, I can't not judge, you know. So, oh, we're looking for this guy? Nope, we're looking for this guy.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

Drop your weapon.

SPEAKER_04 21:39

Drop your weapons. See, he you knew he knew he knew what he was talking about. I'm looking at John, he's giving me the push the button, push the button, man.

SPEAKER_05 21:49

I just wanted to hear that clip. And if someone's got their earbuds in or whatever, and you just do these huge explosions going on in the car. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 22:01

If you spent money on AirPods maxes with spatial audio, we apologize.

SPEAKER_05 22:05

Like because we're completely a great cinematic experience. Um, okay, what about intrusive thoughts? Because my intrusive thoughts, it's hard not to judge them. I'm having intrusive thoughts about violence, uh, inappropriate sexual thoughts or losing control. How can I not judge that?

SPEAKER_04 22:24

Well, you do, but I ain't gonna sound like broken record now. Like, okay, I notice people will say things like, well, in his machine again. Yeah, the machine, but like I notice that I'm having the thought. I know you've heard people talk about that. We've talked about it, other people talk about it. It's a really common thing. Instead of like, oh no, I'm thinking about like harming my dog again or doing like taboo things or whatever it is. Oh, I noticed there's those, there's that thought again. I'm having a thought. What's happening right? What is happening right now? I'm thinking about I'm upset by that. That's it. So, okay, can you just describe what's going on? Because if you start with describing, then you might be able to see, oh, I really want to take the next step and say how horrible this is. Okay, can you see that you really want to take the next step and judge? If you can see that you want to judge it, now you have some control over the judging.

SPEAKER_05 23:13

Yeah, I mean, I take it one step further with that because a lot of a lot of people with like OCD and stuff like that, they will they don't resonate with the term thoughts are just thoughts. Right. So I add an extra layer. So I'm saying, okay, I am noticing, I'm noticing I am having this intrusive thought that is triggering my threat response. I am noticing I am ruminating about the event, and it is making me feel angry. I am noticing I am thinking about Shepherd's Pie and it is making me feel hungry. Uh I'm noticing, but usually it's I'm noticing the thought, but I'm also noticing it's triggering my threat response, Mr. Amygdala. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:02

I think if you don't add that part, people will get trapped into like, yeah, but it fee that's when you get the but it what do you do when it feels so real? Well, you acknowledge that it feels real. I notice I'm thinking about, and I also notice it's making me insert, you know, upset, uncertain, angry, afraid, terrified. Because if you don't acknowledge the emotion that comes that gets triggered by the thought, then you get trapped in, but it feels so real. I know. Notice that too. Acknowledge that too. It's part of what's going on right now. I'm having a really powerful thought, and it feels real because I have this big emotion called anger. I don't know, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_05 24:36

Yeah. So important. Yeah, definitely. Uh what do you think would you agree? Like when people say, I used to say this something, but it feels real. Feels real. I replace it with a cognitive reframe, which is but it feels urgent.

SPEAKER_04 24:50

Yeah. Yeah, it's really good. Or it feels powerful. That's okay. You're allowed to say that. These are big, powerful. Fear is a really powerful experience, right? Like this is a really intense experience. It doesn't mean it's real. Like, in but if you you have to first acknowledge, I think a broken record here. If you don't acknowledge the experience you're having, including what Josh is saying, the emotion you experience, then you will automatically get dragged down the judgment and resistance rabbit hole because it feels so real. So therefore, all the bets are off. Episode 96 of disorder doesn't count, and I have to judge and resist to stay safe. It does count, even with those scary thoughts.

SPEAKER_05 25:26

But what if it is your intuition and something bad is about to happen?

SPEAKER_04 25:31

Well, you have to deal with it if it isn't.

SPEAKER_05 25:32

I'm noticing, I'm having a doubtful thought, which is making me feel anxious. Try not to judge that.

SPEAKER_04 25:38

And we make it sound so easy. I mean, you know, we always try and like make sure that we we're not trying to, oh, just, you know, just say that you're noticing your thought and everything will be fine. It doesn't really work that way. I notice that I'm having a thought that I my intuition is trying to save me, is very intellectualized. That's why you have to also, and I notice I'm feeling big powerful emotions. Otherwise, it's like bullets off of Superman. You're telling me to just say I notice that I'm thinking about self-harm and I should just ignore that then, just let that thought be. Yeah, that sounds really easy, but it's very hard to do.

SPEAKER_05 26:19

It's a practice, it all ties into the attitude shift. It's a core component of willful tolerance. You know, you're doing these things. I'm willfully tolerating the uncertainty, I'm willfully tolerating the emotion. I'm not trying to bat away the emotion. Yep. You know, I am willing to feel the emotion, and when I it's an emotion I don't like, I'm willing to tolerate the emotion.

SPEAKER_04 26:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:38

But I'm not going to push it away. And it feels it's all part of that willful tolerance of the whole umbrella of anxiety.

SPEAKER_04 26:46

Then we get the meta judgment, which is like the judgment about not judging, which is can I I mean this we could go on forever, like this is like inception level stuff, but I think that is the okay. I remember like, yeah, I've been working on it with my therapist, or I heard the disordered guys talking about this. I'm practicing it. I read the Stanley Winston book, whatever it is. But in the moment when I know that, well, this is the time for me to put it into action, I I'm judging, not judging. It just feels too risky to do that. So I'm not gonna do that now. I'm gonna go into the this is just anxiety, it's okay, you got this, you got I'm gonna go into my safety behaviors because I'm judging not judging as being too risky.

SPEAKER_05 27:22

That's so interesting because that applies a lot to the people who could resonate with our last episode on real event OCD. Right. Oh, me not judging this means I don't care in some way. Yep. No, that's still judging. Yeah, it's like no.

SPEAKER_04 27:38

I think so many of these concepts that we and other we didn't invent this stuff, but like you, it's woven through all the different approaches that sound like this. Judgment is a resistance of reality. Like, you know, if you want to get all kind of philosophical, you know, the Buddhists will say we suffer because we resist. But what do we resist? We resist the reality that we can't change. I don't like this reality, so I'm gonna push so hard against it because I don't like it. Well, how's that working for you? It's still here. So, you know, that real event did in fact happen, you know, or the thoughts do exist, the emotions do exist right now. But if you want to push back on the idea I I have to judge it to be safe, well, you're you're I notice the urge to go back to my old ways is another thing you can learn to watch. Those are those practical, uh literally practical mindfulness, which is something that I'm I'm working on right now, and you know, I'll talk about it later. But practical mindfulness, like how do we use that in anxiety recovery? Well, this is this is a start. This is how we learn to start recognize before we start to judge. We take the automatic out a little bit. So that's a great topic. This is a great question, Michelle. Thank you so much for starting this conversation.

SPEAKER_05 28:47

We hope we uh yeah, we hope we answered the uh even at least partially for you, Michelle. It was a really good question, and um yeah, we enjoyed talking about it today. Um, should we get on to some community stuff?

SPEAKER_04 28:59

Sure. I mean, we're done with audio stuff, but we have some stuff to read.

SPEAKER_05 29:03

Yeah, okay. Uh I've got a I've got a did it anyway and a question. Sounds good. I'll start with my did it anyway. Hi guys, my health anxiety reared its ugly head after I got poorly with flu, and I've been bedbound for over seven days, stuck with my own thoughts, which turned to what ifs, scanning, and that led to panic attacks. If it wasn't for listening to your podcasts, I really don't think I'd be on the road to recovery. We appreciate that. I hadn't been to see my horse due to sheer panic, and this is normally my happy place. Well, today, even in the depths of anxiety symptoms, I went to the farm and managed to spend an hour there and gave him the best cuddle ever. And I guess you guys already know this, but the symptoms resided and I felt such an accomplishment. Day two I did the same and managed three hours with even less symptoms. I was determined to not let this beat me and my happy place. I'm so happy that I did it anyway.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

Big round of applause for Rachel and her horse. I was gonna read that one. I'm like, wait, this sounds familiar. Never mind. So good. Very good. I love it. Uh and day two, that to me was the best part of that one. And I went back and I did it again. Because sometimes it's easy to have a win and like, okay, I'm good for the week. I'm good. Like, let me just go back to the sofa. But Rachel went back to the horse the next day. I'm sure the horse was appreciative too.

SPEAKER_05 30:33

Just had this image of this horse, like, oh, that's five hours more hugs. I mean, I like the hugs. I like the hugs, but come on, man. You need space. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 30:43

I'm burnt, man. I'm burnt out.

SPEAKER_05 30:46

No, well done. It's really good. And again, you've con uh you're connecting with your values as well. And yeah, not letting anxiety take away your happy place. I love it. It's really good.

SPEAKER_04 30:55

100%. So since I don't have a written din it anyway, since since you stole mine, which is totally fine. Um Were you gonna read that one out too? I was gonna read that one too. As you're reading it, I'm like, wait a minute. I'm looking at my screen. I'm like, oh yeah, it's that one. So uh how about we trade questions?

SPEAKER_05 31:10

Okay, let's trade a question.

SPEAKER_04 31:12

All right, I'm gonna ask you a question. Um, this is a question from Germany, and she asked me to kind of paraphrase because I there might be a little bit of a language barrier here. Essentially, this person is advocating for a son, which is really awesome. He's 13, he has OCD, he has anxiety and GAT and all kinds of stuff. Okay. He doesn't, the poor kid doesn't want to really open up to his therapist, which I get, it's it's a little scary to talk about this stuff with a essentially a stranger, but he does like to talk to his mom. So his mom is asking, like, they're reading one of your books, which is great, and it's really helping. And she's wondering, since he doesn't really like to talk to the therapist, can he get, can he make progress? Can he get out of this anxious state without a therapist? And there's two parts of this question. This is a this is the good one. He's having a lot of different issues. We're not working all of them on them at the same time, so we have to leave some alone because you just can't work on everything at the same time. Is it correct that the anxieties in general will decrease even if we're not working on all of them at the same time? That is such a good question, right? Killer.

SPEAKER_05 32:15

Yeah, yeah. So it's a two part. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:19

Really, really good.

SPEAKER_05 32:22

Let's talk to Josh. I'll just sit back and drink coffee. I think we it first of all, it's just dependent on what your therapist is trained in. Uh, if they're anxiety disorder aware and you want to work on anxiety disorders and they're informed, then yes, I mean that's a helpful aid. Is it possible to work on anxiety disorders without a therapist? Of course. You know, you hear evidence of that in every episode on here with the Did It Anyways and the Good News Stories. And uh I worked on most of my anxiety disorder on my own. However, if there's other things happening, because life isn't all just about anxiety disorders, we we exist outside of them. Um, I do that's why I do love talking therapy, a way to talk about things that have happened. Maybe your self-esteem, maybe you're going through certain events, maybe there's just things you want to process in your mind that away from the hamster wheel of anxiety disorders and obsessions, uh, and that can really help too. So, yeah, um, I do kind of as a therapist, it's me personally, I separate them a little bit. We can work on them both, or you can work on one at a time. I usually work with the anxiety disorder first because everyone who's listening to this podcast knows how consuming it can be. But once we're not distracted by the fearful consuming threat response, we can then work on the other things that have built up in our stress jug. So, yeah, you can. You can work on it and things. Our therapy is always great, really helpful if the therapist is informed and there's a connection there. Um, but you can also do lots of work on your own as well. It it really depends.

SPEAKER_04 34:00

Yeah, that's a great answer. I'll just add the part about the anxieties, because I can't add any more to what you're talking about, other issues in life. I think it's really people think that, well, I I have this anxiety and I have this kind of anxiety. And I do think that it's really the same, it it's a just as varied presentation of the same core problem, right? I'm afraid of my thoughts, I'm afraid of my body, I'm afraid of my emotions. And so if you get really good or better at dealing with your body, your mind, your emotions, your thoughts in one context, it will feel like, oh, now I have to go over here and learn how to do it over here, but you kind of don't. Like you're building a core set of new responses and reactions, and really responses, not reactions, a new relationship with yourself. So if you are afraid of multiple things, usually it will bleed in. Right. So yeah, that's why people who are monophobic, for instance, don't have to specifically practice staying home alone to overcome that. The the agoraphobic, who also develops that monophobia thing, find often finds that the monophobia just revolve resolves on its own as they push out into the discomfort zone and get better at panicking while out.

SPEAKER_05 35:06

Well, ultimately, yeah, you you you do you attack you approach the fear of fear first, and once you're over the fear of fear, what else is left? That's exactly what I think I did that once I was over my fear of fear, then I then addressed grief. Yeah, I then addressed anger issues, identity issues, neurodivergence, things like that. Yeah, but once the fear of the fear, which will always jump up at the start of your attempt to get your attention, uh this is why it doesn't work when you go to conventional therapy and they're like, you know, tell me about mum and dad. And like, what's that got to do with me having a panic attack when I drink orange juice? Right. Nothing to do with that. Uh but but it is relevant, but usually afterwards. But yeah, great question. Really, really good.

SPEAKER_04 35:47

Very good. Um, let's do another question.

SPEAKER_05 35:49

I have a question for you, Drew. I love this question. Okay, I'm ready. You he's not had a sniffer this one. Uh they've not given permission to use the name, but um hello. Please help me. Since listening to your podcast, I've been trying to make trying to make myself have a panic attack so I can practice being okay with having a panic attack. But I can. The more I try to panic, the calmer I am. I can still get myself anxious, but I've lost the ability to have a full blown panic attack. It's really annoying me. Have you got any tips for giving yourself a panic attack on purpose? Something you can do physically or something mentally I can say to myself to simulate a panic attack. I want to practice and observe an attack.

SPEAKER_04 36:38

Well, I'm gonna that gets this. Even though it's a question. That's really good. The first applause for a question given to a question. Yeah, you might be right. 96 episodes. So that deserves applause because boy, talk about an illustration of the attitude shift, right? I want to practice, I want to panic. This is how I'm gonna get better. Love that. You can't make panic, you can't do it. If you are willing to panic, I want to panic so I could practice it, you cannot make it. Sorry, you just can't. So, no, there's no words.

SPEAKER_05 37:10

It's excellent as well.

SPEAKER_04 37:11

It's really good. Right, it's perfect. Yeah, it's really good. And I think instead of like, I'm frustrated with this, what does that tell you about the panic? Like, take a lesson from it. When I turn toward it and I want to panic, come on, let's panic. I can't. What does that teach you about the nature of panic? So the only thing I might say is like if you still have activities, you know, whatever if you're agoraphobic or whatever, or you have words or thoughts that you try to run away from, maybe you're dealing with OCD, and those still make you panic, then do those things. Like make the panic happen because you're doing something that you think will trigger you. But even then, the agoraphobic who decides I'm gonna go out and drive on the Long Island Expressway so I can panic has a hard time panicking sometimes. I always say you don't people were like, Oh, do I have to panic to get better? Well, you don't have to panic, but you have to be willing to panic.

SPEAKER_05 38:01

Yes. And then once you are, and that's it, and and that question in itself goes to show that you're on a long way a long way into your recovery journey. Yeah, that's that that's the attitude shift. Again, we always reference to episode 10. That's that's the key difference. It's the attitude. I'm willing to, and that curiosity and confidence uh indicators that you're in a good place.

SPEAKER_04 38:25

Yeah. There's also a lack, I think if you're willing to panic, you're you're not judging it anymore. No, no, this is an experience that I have to practice.

SPEAKER_05 38:33

Or well, yeah, what they said, I want I want to practice and obser and observe an attack. There we are. Right. Observing it's so good.

SPEAKER_04 38:41

Yeah, I want to watch it happen. Really good. Excellent question. Very good. I love this. This was awesome. We had fun with Judge Dredd. We answered your questions. Good topic. What else we got? Anything?

SPEAKER_05 38:51

Uh no, not much. The next disordered round table uh is on panic attacks. We'll probably do a few of them. If you want to join, sign up to the mailing list, and you get uh all the details are there. The at disordered.fm. Uh, thank you for the recent podcast reviews, they're really lovely. Put a smile on our face. Um, you know, and uh if you have a spare moment and you want to leave a star review or a written review on Apple Podcasts, we'd really appreciate that. Follow us on social media. We'll be here every Friday. And a big thanks to Drew and Judge Dredd for joining us today. I am the law.

SPEAKER_04 39:27

Alright, we're uh see you guys next week.