Help! I'm In An Anxiety Spiral! (Episode 90)

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Anxiety has all my attention. It feels very overwhelming. It feels like I'm spiraling. Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. And I was really digging into the thoughts and the sensations and trying to make sure that it was okay and figure out what they meant.

SPEAKER_04 0:14

Oh my god, it's still here. And then the scary what ifs come in. That can easily and understandably be conceptualized as I'm spiraling.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

The key aspect of the idea that I'm spiraling is that I am now out of control. And the spiral is that negative connotation of being dragged down into like a hole, a pit. The anxiety isn't the spiral trigger. The spiral trigger is like the third or fourth, oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 0:37

I think very passionately, you're not spiraling, you just go around in a circle. Does the hamster wheel go around and round and round and round and you're going nowhere? Yes. Can you step off the hamster wheel? Also, yes. Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 90 entitled Help, I'm Spiraling. I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm based in the UK, in Manchester, uh, where my practice is called the School of Anxiety, author, podcaster, uh social media pontificator, and yeah, recently had a haircut.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Oh, that's impressive. That's really exciting, actually. Uh, I am Drew Linsolata, I am a therapist practicing under supervision, obligated to say, in New York, also specializing in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm gonna say I'm a social media prancer arounder since you abdicated and got rid of that. Um, also an author three times, former sufferer, psychoeducator, advocate, the whole nine yards. So if you want to know more, listen to the other 89 episodes. We we introduce ourselves every single time. And today I'm not spiraling. So that's something I got that going for me, which is nice.

SPEAKER_04 1:56

Hear that a lot, don't we? Uh I'm spiraling. Something I can resonate with. I it's the kind of semantics you use when you feel a bit hopeless and a bit anxious. Maybe it's with people with GAD or panic disorder, or basically for sensitized people. Anxiety has all my attention, it feels very overwhelming, and uh, it feels like I'm spiraling.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

Can you relate to that, Drew? I can relate to that. Like, what did it feel like back in those days when I I don't know if I ever used the word spiraling, but it would be that time when you got hooked in, I guess, when it got your attention and you I was fueling the oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. Like, and I was really digging into the thoughts and the sensations and trying to make sure that it was okay and figure out what they meant. And next thing you know, I've like burned half of my afternoon, and that I hate that I did it that way, but it didn't feel like a spiral, it just felt like it was being dragged. For me, I use the word dragged, like I felt like it was dragging me around.

SPEAKER_04 2:55

Yeah, yeah. For me, it was like, yeah, it usually comes, and I um from from when people like say it, like on I'm spiraling, whether it's in the practice, uh emails, etc. Um, it's the reason why I want to do the podcast today. It's that semantics with anxiety disorders are very important. And and in today's episode, you're gonna learn some important cognitive reframes. Uh, there's one from the past I love, you know, like I'm having a panic attack. What about an adrenaline rush? Just unexpected. You know, it's more accurate, and the semantics of the word and associations of the word attack can make you feel disempowered. But when if it's adrenaline rush, it's like, oh, is that that's what's happening? Um, we're gonna talk about like what spiraling kind of it is. For me, it was usually after a long period where I was doing okay in air quotes, as in it was a period of not feeling that anxious. But as you know, if you're a listener of this podcast, doing okay isn't you know the accumulation of anxiety's absence, it's our willingness to be uncomfortable, you know, and sequence that. But yeah, for me, it was I was the thought I was getting somewhere, and then suddenly I become sensitized again. Maybe it was an intrusive thought, maybe it was an adrenaline rush, maybe I just woke up feeling on edge, doom, dread, and I found it difficult to leave it alone because it felt very scary and it came comes with that resistance. Then when that happens over a period of time, oh my god, it's still here, oh my god, and then the scary what ifs come in. What if I'm losing my mind? What if my heart explodes? What if I'm losing control? What if I'm going crazy, etc.? That can easily and understandably be conceptualized as I'm spiraling. And if that's you right now and you've clicked this episode and ignored the other 89, you're not spiraling, you're okay. You just feel anxious, just feels like there's a threat that's about to happen. But if you sat listening to Drew and I probably isn't so, but yeah, it was something I used to say. I I I help I'm I'm spiraling because for me, recovery felt like oh this really kind of linear upwards thing. And then when I felt anxious, it felt like a plummet, and I felt out of control. And if you envisage that symbolically, a bit like one of those um, what are those seeds called helicopter seeds called? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it feels like that, like oh, I'm out of control, but the only way is I'm going down. So we often describe it as spiraling, but today we're gonna challenge that because I don't think those semantics help.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

I think the word spiraling maybe comes from like a drain, you know, I'm going down a drain, I'm getting down a funnel. And I think the key phrase that you used is out of control. I think the key aspect of the idea that I'm spiraling is that I am now out of control. And the spiral is that negative connotation of being dragged down into like a hole, a pit, an abyss, whatever. It's not a good connotation. Clearly, it's scary. And am I ever going to get out of it? How do I stop it? I'm out of control. How do I get off this ride in a way? So I think what regardless of the word you use, spiral, you know, for me, it was being dragged and it did feel out of control. But is it? I think that's one of the things we're going to talk about today. Is it really out of control? Yeah. Before we get into it, should we do a community thing though? Yeah. Let's do it. We got a couple of did it anyways today. Let's start with one of those. And it's an audio. So we'll just throw that in right now. Here we go.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Hi, Drew and Josh. This is Heather. Feel free to use my name. I just wanted to share, and I did it anyway this weekend. Uh, I used to love roller coasters, and but ever since developing panic disorder and just really struggling with OCD, it was just something that I couldn't do. Um, this past weekend we went to an amusement park and I got on and I just had this bring it on attitude of like, I really don't care. I know I'm safe. Um, and so yeah, and sitting there waiting for the car to go out, like I thought my heart was gonna like beat through my chest, but I knew it was just adrenaline. You know, I was excited for this ride. And for the first time, I actually had my hands up the whole time. I was just like, we are going to enjoy this, and I'm just gonna enjoy my life. And it was amazing, and I've felt, you know, this high ever since. Like I was just living. So, anyway, just thank you so much for continuing to encourage us, and I hope you guys have a good rest of your week. Thanks.

SPEAKER_04 7:36

Well done, Heather. Great. It sounds really symbolic of probably your your journey with panic disorder as well. Like applying all the principles and being like, yeah, I can let go of you. Like quite literally, didn't white knuckle either. Yeah. Now, would I do that when I was on a roller coaster? No, I would be grasping on for dear life. So, Heather, you have surpassed me.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

Well done. 100%. That hands in the air thing, like the image is so clear, right? And symbolically, that's such a huge, like a victory lap, right? So good. Uh and so good. Well done. I love that Heather kind of used the um, you know, the the roller coaster as as our story, and it's a real story, of course. Roller coasters are feel like you're out of control, right? So I've even heard people use the feel like it feels like I'm on a roller coaster when I get really anxious. When I start to spiral, like it's taken, I can't stop the ride. I need to get off the ride. So I don't know. Is it out of control though? What do we think?

SPEAKER_04 8:29

Oh, roller coasters spiral as well. We're making a theme out of the episode.

SPEAKER_03 8:35

We did not plan that. Thank you, Heather, for feeding into the theme, but like just yeah, on the ride, and you can't get off once the ride starts, you can't get off. Like, no, you can't stop roller coaster in the middle.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

But also, you want it to spiral. That's the whole point. What a sucky roller coaster. If you sat there and it just it just went in a line and then you got off on the other side of the park. You're like, What? What was that about? Yeah, yeah. What where was the jeopardy in that? Where was the excitement? Uh, so yeah, um, I mean, it's something you say and I say to Drew, is like the first notion to challenging the word spiraling is sometimes it's so good to spiral.

SPEAKER_03 9:16

People pay to spiral, right? In certain instances, they want that excitement, but the the out-of-control part of the anxiety spiral, I think, is might be the key. Because it I think that's what scares people. It's what scared me. Like, I feel like I have no control over the outcome right now. I'm absolutely being thrashed about and thrown around and like a cork in the ocean, and there's nothing I can do about this. So is it is a spiral a downward thing? Is it a what do you what do you think we could have we could talk for hours on a spiral now that I think about it?

SPEAKER_04 9:45

Well, some spirals go upwards, but like you said, with the drains and things like that, a lot of spirals go downwards. But here's the thing, and what you've got to remember, and anyone who listens to this this podcast is obviously probably dealing with some form of anxiety, is that step one to overcoming any anxiety is one be anxious. So if you're someone who's doing really well on the road to recovery, not been anxious for a long time, and you suddenly become anxious, that is your opportunity to keep telling your brain I'm okay with uncertainty. Honestly, it's one of the biggest mistakes that you get people like I've been not been anxious for three weeks, and suddenly I'm anxious again. Bum, shock, attention, resistance. Whereas actually, it's okay to feel that shock. I'm anxious again. All right, no, I'm not giving it my attention and I'm not gonna resist it because that's recovery. Recovery is not oh, I'm never anxious again. No, it's what happens when I get the shock again. And so when you are spiraling, and for someone like me who's felt like they're spiraling in the past, i.e., I'm sensitized, I'm re-sensitized, and I'm having an anxious moment or an anxious hour or a few days. Actually, let's reframe this is an opportunity for me to teach the brain, the threat response, the button that Drew's about to press. It's about teaching that the uncertainty is okay. We don't get rid of it, we just keep it in line.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

This button? Amygdala.

SPEAKER_04 11:14

That button. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 11:15

I knew it. We haven't heard from the amygdala in a few weeks, I think.

SPEAKER_04 11:18

So no, let's have a back amygdala. You have a daily quest of pressing it eight times in this episode.

SPEAKER_03 11:30

I I think one of the key things is that the spiral, people like will often ask, how do I prevent, how do I keep from going into the spiral? And I think the spiral is not triggered by the state. Like the anxiety isn't the spiral trigger. What this the spiral trigger is like the third or fourth, oh my God. Not the first one, because we can't get rid of that. That's Dr. Week's first fear. It's the third or fourth one. After you've done OMG like four or five times, now you're that's the spiral because that's the uh-oh, this is out of control. I have to do something about this, and I don't know what to do. Now, now I'm thrashing. Now, now I've lost the ability to make good decisions. But are you spiraling though?

SPEAKER_04 12:08

I think very passionately, you're not spiraling, you just go around in a circle. That's a really good way to look at it. I like that. It's so important. Am I spiraling, hurtling down towards the earth from 10,000 feet? I I I feel despondent because I've got to get all the way back to the top again if I'm spiraling. No, I'm just in a circle. Yeah, I'm just stuck on a roundabout. What do you call them in the US? Traffic circles. Traffic, that's the most boring.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

You know what we really call them? Ridiculous, because they are. That's what we call them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:41

Well, they're actually an important and vital part of the UK road network.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

We only really have them. You guys have them in New England.

SPEAKER_04 12:48

Because there's no space here, so there's just like there's houses and little roads, and you've got to do it anyway. Uh, so what is it? Uh uh what was it, a driving circle?

SPEAKER_03 12:56

A traffic circle. We go the roundabout. Some people say roundabout.

SPEAKER_04 13:03

I'm gonna stand by you're in a circle and you can step off it. I often call it the hamster wheel on the hamster wheel. Am I spiraling? No. Does the hamster wheel go round and round and round and round and you're going nowhere? Yes. Yeah. Can you step off the hamster wheel? Also, yes. You know, and it's it's one of those, it's like I had a client a lot a little while ago saying that it feels like I'm running up the travelator. Do you remember the travelator from Gladiators? I think you had gladiators in the US, but in the UK is a show called Gladiators, it's come back, you know, where these really buff athletic gladiators are there, and then these contestants come along and try to beat them in certain challenges of skill, strength, speed, etc. And right on the final round, this thing called the travelator. So you do loads of balancing beams, you do uh monkey bars, climbing up nets, going down zip lines, using all sorts of strength. And the travelator at the end is this conveyor belt on an incline. Oh, yeah, then you've got no energy left, yeah, and you've just got to run and run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run, run and get up to the top. But here's the thing: this is what I say to people is like recovery is not the travelator, just walk around and go on. You don't need to run up there. It's okay, just that's leave that for the gladiators, you know. For you, this is this is anxiety and OCD. Yeah, and we have this vision where like, no, if just keep pushing and firing, and then and obviously when you get tired at the top and it pushes you down to the floor, you're gonna feel depressed, despondent. Yeah, now I've got to build myself up to get back up the travelator. No, you don't. It's like let's just walk around it.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

It's even the that interpretation or the the implication, I'm running up the travelator or I'm spiraling, is that at the bottom of that is disaster. And it's not the you know, recovery is learning through experience that like the bottom of the spiral doesn't have there is no bottom. There's no where you smash and you're obliterated. It's you're not trapped in a black hole that you never leave. Like, I know it feels like it. So, like, how do I get out of the spiral because I'm heading into this dark place where I'm gonna hit the bottom of the travelator and get squished? No, the bottom of the travelator is just the bottom. Like it's it's not, I know we're trying to not try to minimize anybody's experience, but I think the idea that like I have to stop spiraling means I am I'm crashing. I'm going to a place that I shouldn't, I can't go, I don't want to go into. How do I stop doing that?

SPEAKER_04 15:26

Yeah. And it's for people who I mean, how often did you feel when Drew, when you were coming? Something I felt quite often was uh, oh no, I'm back to square one.

SPEAKER_03 15:37

I was, you know, what's so funny? I have the most interesting, I think the most interesting experience on that. I never thought I was back to square one, but I would get super impatient and frustrated. So I had a weird combination of interpretations, like uh, I would get angry and impatient and frustrated that I had a bad day and my exposures that they didn't go very well, or I felt like I was having a really anxious day. But I never interpreted it as I'm back to the beginning, I'm never gonna get better. That's my brain is just weird.

SPEAKER_04 16:03

Yeah, we know that. Yeah, I often had the I I often had the oh no, I'm back to square one. Yeah, you know, and particularly with like um resensitization with stuff like agrophobia, OCD, and intrusive thoughts, it was very much like, oh no, I'm back here again. Oh, now I'm afraid to do the things that I wasn't afraid of. Yep. And that resensitization. There's no back to square one, really, because you can't unlearn what you learned, yep, and and stuff, but it does feel that deflating. So when people say, Oh no, I'm spiraling, yeah, it's often that mixture of despondency, critic, Craig, the critic, hopelessness, and fear again. Oh no, I don't want to go back to that place. Yeah, and actually, for me, it's very helpful to reframe, be like, no, I'm just anxious, my threat response is on, and I'm misinterpreting this. Yeah, I'm misinterpreting my own anxiety as something worse or different than what it originally was. Nope, that's it. It just has your attention. The distance between shock, oh my god, to so what has just widened a bit. And just be careful with that. That's why I'm confident I'll never go back to square one because I know what it is. It's like I never wake up thinking, I hope I don't forget how to ride a bike. You know, does that guarantee me that I'll never fall off a bike? No. Does that guarantee me that my bike might stop, you know, the chain might break? No. But that confidence knowing that I can ride a bike, albeit I'll be a bit rusty or sometimes I'll fall off, that's fine. You know, there's no going back to square one. And I want you to use that kind of analogy with anxiety recovery, too.

SPEAKER_03 17:45

You're riding one of those big penny farthing bikes with like the huge front wheel. I would pay to do that. Oh, I don't I don't know where the rule rules Britannia. What a ridiculous, right? Horrible invention. People were like literally injured by people died on those. I know. You're like 12 feet in the air in an unsearable thing. That's scary. That's a spiral, right? That's a Victorian flex. Oh, well, the penny floor thing. Check that out, right? The whole how do I stop the spiral? How do I not get in the spiral? You know, it's a paradox thing where I like your hamster wheel, like I'm going around in a circle. Well, then what do I do? Well, step off. Like that sounds so simple. Just step off. I posted the other day on Instagram about using the word. Slow down and step off. Yeah, like slow down, step off. But the reason why people feel like can't get that, or like they're not getting that is now that's interesting. That's like somebody just joined us, but they didn't. Anyway, same sound. Um people want they they feel so hard that they have to stop the spiral, but you don't. Like you can just step off it. Stop trying to not spiral, except that feels really dangerous and risky. Like if I step off the hamster wheel, running faster seems like the right idea.

SPEAKER_04 18:55

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. To keep running or keep trying, keep trying and getting up. Yeah, yeah. The hamster wheel traveler. I keep I keep trying. No, just step off it. Step off the hamster wheel, step off the traveler.

SPEAKER_03 19:06

It's safe to do that. It's okay. It's safe to do that. But then I'd feel all the things. But then what about the thoughts? The thoughts keep coming. I know. Like my heart is still pounding. I know. So, like, but it's safe to do that. The the paradox of the spiral is the harder you try to not get sucked into the spiral, the more you get stuck into the spiral. So of which there is no spiral. You don't got none. Sorry, weird, like certain anxiety is just a I mean, it's really a douche in the end. Like it really is nasty it just tells ridiculous lies and like fools you and tricks you into thinking things. But in the shock attention resistance model that we have come to love so much and that we will win a Nobel Prize for if they ever have a Nobel Prize. I was offended that we didn't get this year. No, who do we talk to about that? You guys, if you want to call Sweden and complain, we won't get behind you on that. But in the S A R model, like it's the R. It's the R. Like, yeah, there was some shock and it got your attention because you're you're normal, you're human, but it got so much attention, you went to the R part and you're fighting like the devil to try and get out of this, the grips of this thing. But like, let go. If you let go and stop tugging on the rope, it feels like it's too scary and risky to do that. But that's what stops the spiral. Once you're aware that you're tugging, stop.

SPEAKER_04 20:14

Said Drew to his 15-year-old self. So yeah, I walked right in. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_05 20:21

Start again.

SPEAKER_04 20:23

That's not staying in the episode. That's all design. Oh man, I didn't know. No, but it's interesting. It's like it's interesting because like I expect that. So when when people are expiring or this and that, you're gonna get the misinterpretation of it, particularly if it's been a while and you've not felt that intensity of anxiety for a while. So it's it'll be like you might get old um old what ifs misinterpreted misinterpretations of how you're feeling, like, or what if you are going crazy? Or what if this time it's different because we're actually out of the normal the the habit of feeling this. Oh, it does feel a bit different. Yeah, oh, oh, that how can I go four days fine and then suddenly feel this intense and for so long that something must be wrong? That's just the threat response working with the cognitive brain to try to sit to say right, I don't know what's going on here. I'm gonna help you to try to work it out. No, you're just on the hamster wheel, and you know it is because you've got the symptoms, the pounding heart, the dread, the urge to fix, your attention's gone inwards. You're just running and running and running. You're trying to run yourself off the hamster wheel when actually stop, stop the resistance, let it slow down, get your breath back and start and step off it.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

I think you you're you almost can't help it. One of realistic expectations, well, we talk about that all the time. If you get triggered again, especially if you're out of practice, and we all know what that feels like, like, because then, like you said, your brain will be like, it's been so long, maybe this is the time, right? This is the time it is. Actually, an aneurysm. And like that's super scary. So, like, you're going to do a few laps on the hamster wheel. You're going to, you're going to circle that spiral a few times if that's the way you conceptualize it. If for me it was being dragged, I'm going to get dragged a couple hundred yards. Like, that's just the way it works. But once I recognize what's going on, that's my opportunity. I ain't going to say it again, by the way. I know you want me to, but I'm not going to say it again. So that's my opportunity to drop the rope. And we can just say drop the rope. We're so childish, undisordered. How do you put in with the rope? Just, I'm watching him on video, just he's going to say it, say it again, say it again. But once I recognize that I'm doing it, then I can stop. I can drop that rope. I can stop biting. I can let the hamster wheel slow down. But you're going to take a few laps. It's okay. Like I think it's I don't know how to engineer that out for anybody. And it's unrealistic and not very kind to yourself to insist that you should never the hamster wheel should never ever spin. If you got caught up for a few minutes or even a half hour, or a day or two after being feeling really good for like six months, okay, that can happen. Readjust, back on the horse, start riding again, or get off the hamster wheel, start walking again. You know, it's okay. Be nice to yourself a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 23:11

And remember the formula that we spoke about, and which I I speak about more often actually these days. It's that, you know, that problem-solving formula that solves 99% of things in our life, you know, like attention plus energy equals problem solved, you know, solves most things. You know, you can fix things, fix your car, fix your roof, you know. Maybe there's a problem at work, maybe you've got to put attention and energy onto something to complete tasks. That's great. Never get rid of that. But if you notice and you know it's an anxiety disorder thing, by the more attention and energy you're pouring into, you know, conceptually spiraling, and you notice it's only speeding that feeling up, then that's when you get old on. Whoa, whoa, I'm just on the hamster wheel here. I'm not actually sparring, I'm running up the traveler, except, you know, because I could I'm convinced that there's a prize at the top of this travelator, but there isn't. There's just salad. And that's a prize. That is never a prize. Sorry. No, absolutely. And so I'd be like, no, I can just slow down. Less is more here.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

You know, you said energy as part of that equation. I think that's a key thing too. I I did a spiraling episode on The Anxious Truth about two years ago, and my conceptualization of the spiral was up. Like everybody thinks of it's down, but like if you assume that you're starting from a baseline, like you're on the water and it's calm, it's a calm day on the water, and then something triggers a storm. Like the storm over the water needs warm water, it needs warm air, it needs moisture, it needs energy, it needs a source of energy. So the harder you do OMG, you're not actually going down a spiral. You're amping up the storm. It's spinning faster and harder, like you're handing it what it wants. So when your amygdala, and we won't play it again, decides there's a problem, and you say, Yeah, there's a problem. Oh my God, there's a problem. It's like, alrighty, let's crank it up to six. Yeah, yeah, there's a real problem. All right, let's crank it up to eight. And then, like, it's cranking up past 10. It's spinal tab, it's 11 at that point. You're adding energy. The resistance adds energy to that spiral that is that tornado, hurricane, cyclone, whatever you want to call it. Think of it that way. If I starve it of energy, it's gonna run out sooner or later.

SPEAKER_04 25:23

But they look cool as well. Like you can reframe and and and rejig your association with what spiraling is. So if I'm in the middle of my exposures where I'm purposely making myself anxious, so I can activate my amygdala and I can rewire it, and I'm practicing being anxious, doing all you know my homework. You know, if Drew bumps into me on on the train one day, and he's like, Whoa, Josh, you're all right. I'm like, Yeah, I'm spiraling. I'm spiraling, dude. And I am doing well. This is the whole point. I'm doing my homework. Whoa, yeah, yeah, I'm doing okay. I'm a short of breath, feel dizzy. My brain's convincing me I'm gonna collapse or throw up or lose control or start becoming violent or or pass out, have a heart attack. I'm purposely doing this. Can't wait for those train doors to shut so I can convince my brain, you know. And so, yeah, I'm I'm spiraling, mate. How are you doing? And you're like, Yeah, I'm doing all right, bit tired. I ran up the travel later, and all that was there was salad. I'm I'm sorry, dude. I much prefer spiraling than what you would do.

SPEAKER_03 26:26

That's a good point. In that's in treatment, we want to spiral. So that spiral is not a bad thing. We literally are trying, I'm trying to poke you to the point where you start to spiral.

SPEAKER_04 26:37

You know, that don't not literally, I hope.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

That's no, there's no poking. I mean, no, we've never had an occasion that was actual poking, but like, yeah, you're your therapist, if they are trained in treating anxiety disorders, is trying to ignite a spiral. I mean, of course, it's a lot of education ahead of that and expectation settings, so you know what to expect, and this is why we're doing this. You don't just do it, you know, without just throw put somebody in the deep in on the first day of therapy, but like we are we are using the spiral. It's a tool for us. We want you to spiral. So is it bad or is it an another opportunity to practice? You might not see it that way. We're not trying to minimize the experience. You can't just just decide to love it, but at the same time, it's not that dangerous, horrible thing. So we talked about semantics. It's not a bad thing, right? It's not a bad thing to spiral. It's a bad experience or it's a difficult experience or a negative. I can call whatever you want. Like, yeah, nobody wants it, but it's not a dangerous thing, it's not a permanent thing, it's not a debilitating thing. It's an uncomfortable experience.

SPEAKER_04 27:35

I wouldn't even say it's negative or bad, it's essential for recovery to experience yourself going round in circles. As uh anyone listening to this podcast will know whatever their worry is, they've experienced that cyclical presentation of anxiety where it feels like they're going round and round in circles. It's all part of it, and to realize and no recovery is linear, you know, and it's part of recovery. Actually, yeah, I did kind of feel like I was spiraling for a few days, but you know what? I'm back here now. Wow, even that couldn't throw me off.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Yeah, very good. And I think the repetitive nature of the spiral, if you've ever asked, how do I stop spiraling? How do I stay out of the spiral? I I hear them every day.

SPEAKER_04 28:18

I'm spiraling, I'm spiraling. I'm like, okay, great. Obviously, not without compassion. I don't want people to feel that, but you know, like I'm trying to convey to people like this is part of recovery. Yeah. Not doing anything wrong. Don't let Craig the critic say, you look, you're spiraling, you're not getting things right. No, that is part of the exposure to like, oh, okay, I feel a bit overwhelmed. This is part of it.

SPEAKER_03 28:41

At the end of that experience, if we induce a spiral, people like Josh and I, after that is done in session, we're gonna debrief that. So we're gonna ask you questions like, what did you learn from that? What surprised you about that? What did this tell you about your capability? What does it tell you about the nature of the anxiety that you fear so much? So if you wind up in a spiral again and again and again, as opposed to saying, how do I stop the spiral? Maybe stop for a second and ask yourself those questions. Well, if I if I'm spiraling every third day, what does that tell me about the nature of this? I never wind up on the rocks forever bleeding and crushed and like permanently debilitated. No, I don't. It always ends. I wind up coming out the other end, and then I want to know how to prevent that from happening again. Well, what can I actually learn? Can I learn something about the nature of this experience from that experience? So the repetitive nature of it sometimes is a clue. It keeps happening, and I'm still here to ask the question. So, do I have to ask the question?

SPEAKER_04 29:33

I think that's a lovely way to kind of end to end that. I think that's uh yeah. That's a that's a that's a good cherry on the on the cake. Sure. Um, community stuff.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

What we got? Well, we got another audio did it anyway. We have a written one, and we got a question. Let's do our audio did it anyway. How's that? Cool. All right, let's do it. Now let me just make sure because why is it doing it this way? I want to make sure I play the right thing. Copper's chiming in, but here we go.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Hey Drew and Josh. Um, I want to share a did it anyway. Um, my name's Becky. I'm from Chelten Mini, UK, and I just want to thank you guys for everything you're doing. Um, yeah, it's really helping me, and I'm sure it's helping so many other people. I'm so grateful. Um, anyway, yeah, on Sunday I got up. I was feeling so anxious. I had all the intrusive thoughts going around, but I was like, nope, I really want to go for a good walk. My husband and I enjoy walking, so we drove to the place on the way there. I was so anxious, I was even dry heaving. My husband's like, Are you okay? And I'm like, Yeah, I can do this. So I did it anyway. Um, quite enjoyed it actually. Got home later on, um, started to make some lunch and stuff, and then I was like, Oh wow, don't actually feel anxious anymore. It was incredible, although I'm making sure that isn't the aim. But yeah, I just wanted to share that, guys. Um, and yeah, just keep doing what you're doing. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 31:01

Go back. Yeah. I didn't expect to hear dry heaving said so casually today. It wasn't on my echo card. Good job, Becky.

SPEAKER_04 31:09

Yeah, well done as well. Uh fun fact, I spent the first nine years of my life in Cheltenham as a child.

SPEAKER_05 31:16

Really?

SPEAKER_04 31:16

Um, yeah. So um, I mean, fun fact for no pub quiz ever. Well done, Becky. I think it's really cool.

SPEAKER_03 31:23

It's a pub quiz. Um, what do we want to do? Let's see. We're 30 minutes into it. We can read a did it anyway. We could ask a quick let's leave the question to the end. How's that? Yeah, read it anyway, and then we'll have a question. Well, read a did it anyway. Sometimes you guys uh email these in, which we're always happy to get. So I'll read this one. Um, this is from Sam, who says, Hi, Drew and Josh. My name is Sam. You can use my name, thank you. But I I wanted to share a did it anyway uh slash small success with you. I'm 29. I've had OCD and anxiety for as long as I can remember, and I live in Phoenix, Arizona, where it is ridiculously hot in the summer. Um I added that. On my wedding day this year, I felt like I got zero sleep because, you know, excitement planning, all the thoughts racing in my head. And even though I was so tired, I couldn't sleep. It became the beginning of a huge anxiety trigger for me, and I struggled with insomnia for a few months afterwards. I was doing everything to get back to where I was with my sleep before that night. Fast forward to today, I just had a similar night to the one I experienced on that day after a few months of sleeplessness. And my first thought was, oh no, it's back. I can't do this. Christmas is my Christmas is my favorite time. But then I realized, who cares? Maybe it's just one night, maybe it'll last a week or a month. Either way, I was fine last time. I'll be fine again, maybe with twinkly lights all around. Uh there's a lot coming up at the holiday season. And while my initial reaction last night was that I was failing, I woke up feeling much lighter than I ever have about this. To me, this feeling of gratitude for a chance to practice willful tolerance makes me feel like I'm doing something right. Thank you both for all you do and reminding me and many others that we aren't alone in our struggles. You're very welcome, Sam. Very well done. Very well done.

SPEAKER_04 33:01

Well done, Sam. And what a great example of stepping off the hamster wheel. Must get sleep, must try hot. Uh yeah. Uh, if I sleep, a sleep, but not, I don't. Maybe with twinkly lights. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 33:13

Yeah, the Christmas lights. My favorite part of this is when he says I woke up feeling much lighter than I ever have about this. Feeling better about this. Not feeling better. Maybe he was. I hope you are, Sam. But like feeling better about this is ooh, I'm changing my thoughts and feelings about the thoughts and feelings. I have different thoughts and feelings about my thoughts and feelings now. Excellent. Excellent, excellent. Well done. Very good. We got a question. We may as well play the question. We'll do our best to answer it and then we will wrap it up, sir. Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Hey guys, my name is Andy. You can use my name. I've got a question relating to the genetic component of anxiety and how someone might be predisposed. I've been suffering from anxiety the last year and a half because of some traumatic circumstances. And my wife struggles on and off from time to time and seems to be more a part of her family genetics. And I'm mostly wondering what does it mean for anxiety to be partially genetic? Thanks. Bye.

SPEAKER_04 34:15

What do you think? What are your thoughts on genetics? I mean, the evidence suggests that genetics do play a part. Um, I this is why I love the stress drug analogy. I think you inherit the stress jug from your parents. So if my mum and dad were quite anxious people, so I've got quite a small stress jug. Um, and so my predisposition and ability to tolerate stress before my threat response kicks off is probably quite small. So I've got to be mindful of what's in my stress jug. That's the kind of nature side of it. The nature of the nurture argument, and then uh other times is that if you uh have grown up with a parent who is anxious, and there's that behaviorism side where you know, actually, I saw my my mum and dad were anxious, but rather than showing it, I actually observed them leave the room, or they wouldn't ever convey or express emotions or anxiety, so you're kind of interjecting and learning a lesson there that it's not okay to have these certain emotions. It's a mixture of that nature v nurture. I think from the nature side, yeah, you can you mean you're inheriting the nervous system and brains from your from your parents and grandparents, etc., like that. Um and yeah, yeah, I think your tolerance to stress may be um less than others, certainly mine. You know, I can't deal with stress as as well as other people, and that's okay. You just you you you you you play with the cards you've been dealt. Um, and also yeah, the nurture side of things as well. Obviously, life isn't just about anxiety disorders. Sometimes we struggle to regulate, not regulate us, but regulate all our emotions and feel them because of of how we've been brought up. Maybe it's in an emotionally conservative home, etc. And so, you know, when we try and repress those things like anger, frustration, grief, things like that, pride, even, you know, that can come out in certain ways. Uh, it's a convoluted um answer, but in general, yeah. I mean, my my simple answer is yeah, you you can be more disposed to being anxious. Does that mean you can recover? Yes, of course it does. It just means probably more easily, you know, the the path to developing disordered anxiety is probably a lot shorter, and yeah, you're more you're more prone to it.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

Genetics is a vulnerability thing, right? It's not I the most important thing I would add to that, which was a great answer, is it maybe means that you have an increased vulnerability for developing this particular problem. It doesn't mean you inherit anxiety from your parents. It's really important to that, those are two very different things. And we know this because of twin studies. Now you can't do a lot of those. So these are twin studies where it's biological twins that grow up in different environments. And like you can see, okay, well, the the lifetime prevalence of this type of thing is higher among those people than it is among the general public. That indicates that there's probably a genetic predisposition or vulnerability. They do not all wind up with anxiety disorders, nor do both have it if one develops one. So you're not doomed if your parents were genetic. And I've heard that put out a couple of different ways that I think could be unhelpful. It's it's just genetic. You're doomed, you're always going to get it. Be careful about that because that's very fatalistic and takes your power away. And the second thing is the biological approach, and there certainly is biology involved, is if it's genetic, then we can fix it. So, you know, by this supplement that that addresses that, be really careful of that. We do not have a genetic intervention for this right now. We may never, and we might not for a very long time. So who knows?

SPEAKER_04 37:49

And as practitioners, from our point of view, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_03 37:52

Right.

SPEAKER_04 37:53

Because sometimes sometimes when I'm working with other people with OCD, very common, you know, oh, actually, yeah, it runs in my family, sure, etc., and stuff like that. Same with neurodivergence, autism, ADHD, etc. And it's nice to paint the picture of that, but does it affect what we do?

SPEAKER_03 38:12

No, really. I mean, it might to me, I kind of use that like we always gonna take a family history, and like, okay, well, you you may be genetic unlucky lottery. It doesn't mean you're broken, you didn't cause this, you didn't make you're not broken, you're not defective. Uh, maybe, you know, you're short straw genetically, but that's okay. We can work with that.

SPEAKER_04 38:31

Yeah, and and and also like I I have this theory before we wrap up, like, you know, people with anxiety disorders are fixators, and being a fixator is a good thing. You know, when you fixate on great tasks and going back to the formula, energy plus attention equals issue solved or whatever, or if you're a fixator creatively, it's a beautiful part of your personality. Just sometimes we use that tool for the wrong problem, or use a tool when there isn't a problem, and that's why we end up on the hamster wheel and in circles.

SPEAKER_03 38:58

I agree. Good job. I think we've said enough about spiraling and answered questions and had community wins. Thanks for listening, you guys. If you want to participate, head on over to disorder.fm. You can send us a voicemail or an email, ask us a question, share a win, tell us that we're funny looking. It's all good. We're here for all of it.

SPEAKER_04 39:16

That's cool. Drew and I are now gonna go and do a strength test and have a game of tug of war.

SPEAKER_03 39:21

So have a lovely rest of your week. Stop tugging on your stress jug, your little stress jug date. I was waiting, just waiting for that. Anyway, um, and of course, if you're listening on Apple or Spotify or someplace where you can leave a rating for the podcast, maybe leave us a nice rating if you dig it because we're getting a lot of those and we appreciate you guys, and it helps more people find the podcast. And what else can we tell you? I think that's it. We'll be back next week. Catch you soon. See ya.