Real Event OCD (Episode 95)

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Real event OCD is usually associated with pure O. People who compulsively ruminate, seek reassurance, often intertwines with a feeling of guilt. The same pang or trigger as anyone else with OCD, but in this case, it's an intrusive memory. A real event that actually happened.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Your compulsions are meant to alleviate the distress you feel about that event.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

With real event OCD, the threat response has some great ammunition.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

It goes, yeah, but it did happen. Maybe the nonsense part in RE OCD is the idea or the belief that you can somehow find enough correct thinking or ruminating or like reframing or replaying that will somehow make you be okay with the fact that this thing happened. Welcome to episode 95 of Disordered. Uh, this week we are talking about real event OCD, sometimes called R-E-O-C-D, if you're into the whole abbreviation thing. Uh I'm Drew Linsalata. I am a therapist practicing under supervision in the state of New York, specializing in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders. Also a former sufferer of anxiety disorders and depression for many years of my life, but doing better now, and an author, a podcaster, clearly, because I'm sitting behind this mic again, uh, social media dude, advocate, you know, general like anxiety gadfly. I'm like an anxiety bar gadfly. Well, what is that? A bar fly, that's what it would be called. Anyway, I am joined today on episode 95 by.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a therapist based in Manchester in the UK. I'm an author, specialized in anxiety disorders. I've had several anxiety disorders, co co-hosted this wonderful podcast. And yeah, thanks for tuning in for another episode on real event OCD.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Hmm. This is a good topic.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

It is a good one. It's a branch of OCD. Uh, if you're listening and you're like, well, that doesn't apply to me, do listen because the mechanics and the principles, as we know, uh are the same. There is a little nuance with this tricky subtype of OCD. And for anyone who does have real event OCD, strap in. Um, hopefully, we'll give you some nice advice.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

What I think is good about this topic, real event OCD, is even if you don't have necessarily OCD, technically, this is the what if a bad thing really does happen episode? Because bad things that make us feel bad do happen in life. That is welcome to being human. This happens to us sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Yeah, but then we see how it overlaps with the obsessive-compulsive nature of almost every anxiety disorder. It's interesting. In the last episode where I asked Sally, like, do you think uh all anxiety disorders are obsessive and compulsive? She kind of said, mostly. I still I still stand by the hypothesis that that that the there is always an obsessive-compulsive element in the mechanics of what you do. And so, yeah, if you listen to this podcast, you're probably obsessive-compulsive. So, yeah, listen as we explore the theme of real event OCD. Uh, before we do that, though, I think we should check in with the community. What what real event can we actually play?

SPEAKER_03 3:12

Yes, we do have a real event in the form of something we call did it anyway, so let's hear one right now.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Uh I wanted to share a Did It Anyway. Uh, I've been agoraphobic and have health anxiety and panic attacks since I was around 12. I'm now in my late 20s. I drove for the first time in a few months. But drove much further than I have in about a year. Um, this is very big. I I later on got coffee. I went into the cafe, ordered it, uh, took some time, it felt like an eternity, got my coffee, drank the coffee, ready to get the heart rate going with the caffeine. I then drove around, blasted some loud music. Um, didn't roll down my windows to get an even colder air in an already cold car. I didn't have my hoodie over my head uh to you know block out the sun or anything like that. I did that, came home and did stuff as usual. Um yeah, I wanted to share that because you guys have been instrumental uh with kind of guiding me in where to look for help. Uh and just wanted to tell anybody else if they're struggling with it, is uh you you can do it. Uh I hope to share many more. I hope others do too. Have a great one.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

Well, before the applause, Armin gets this.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

But I'm not done yet.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

He just kept going, man. But he does get applause.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Well done, Armin. That was uh excellent. Uh what a really calming voice he has as well. Uh yeah, nice voice. Uh well done. Yeah, I like the intention there. Get up, keep going, doing these things. And then he was asking for more as well. Like, well, I'm I'm gonna go here and I'm gonna have caffeine, and I'm not gonna put roll the windows down. And I'm he's setting up the perfect kind of scene for to willfully tolerate all the things he doesn't like.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

So well done. Yeah, it's a perfect example of the whole like, well, I don't want to overdo it. No, go ahead, overdo it. Armin overdid it, turned out great. Like, oh, I don't want to do too much, you know. So good. Then the loud music turned up the loud music in the car. I'm a fan. Good job.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

So yeah, nice one. Thanks for sharing real event OCD. Uh, so real event OCD is usually associated with um pure o people who compulsively ruminate, seek reassurance, and often intertwines with the feeling of guilt. So people who struggle with real event OCD uh will have the same pang or trigger as anyone else with OCD in response to an intrusive thought, but in this case, it's an intrusive memory, a real event that actually happened that taps into both anxiety and guilt. And so therefore, the person's like, Oh no, this this is actually I can't believe I've done this. Usually this happens a long time after the event, after we've kind of okay with it. But you know it's OCD when, like with all anxiety, it makes you feel this sense of urgency, and then subsequently we find it very difficult to leave alone.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Yeah. I think one of the critical distinctions when you're looking at real event OCD, because when we interact, at least when I interact with people in the community who have real event OCD, they will often feel like, but you don't understand the rules that you guys talk about don't apply because the thing did actually happen. And the the answer is like, I know. And and I I think one of the misconceptions is that, well, with real event OCD, you can't do anything about it because the event did in fact happen. And since I can't change time or go back in time, there's nothing I could do. I just have to stop for forever. There's no way for me to deal with this. But what you're interested in with real event OCD is trying to get rid of your feet, you're compulsively trying to get rid of your feelings about the event. You're not trying to fix the fact that the event happened doesn't change the rules, if you will, air quotes. So your compulsions are meant to alleviate the distress you feel about that event, whatever form that takes. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

And remember, the threat response, the whole point of the threat response is to keep your attention and it uses a persuasive narrative. So even if things usually, most of the time with anxiety, it's like, yeah, but it could happen. And if you leave this alone, it's irresponsible. And so people have to deal with that. With real event OCD, the threat response has some great ammunition. It goes, yeah, but it did happen. You know, that thing did happen, and you should feel bad for it. And what does this mean about you? And it often questions your morality, your integrity, your identity. Um, all things that are threats. A threat isn't only just a danger to you and your physical well-being. A threat is often um interpreted as something that um attacks your character, your personality, who you are as a person. And yeah, people can get stuck with this. Um, often people with real event OCD, and it's nice that we speak about this in following on from the Sally Winston-Marty Seif episode, is that Sally Winston says, you know, all an OCD thought is nonsense, it's not a warp sense, it's just utter nonsense. To which a lot of the real event crowd come back with is, yeah, but mine really happened. And what we're gonna talk about here is they're still the same, you still treat it as nonsense. Yeah, but mine really happened, but it's still nonsense.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

I think there's a a slight twist. We even talked about it with them, I think. The slight twist would be maybe the the content of the the event isn't nonsense because it actually happened. That's correct. The fact that you're reminding, reminded of it isn't nonsense because it is a memory of a thing that actually happened. Correct, that's not nonsense. Maybe the nonsense part in REOCD is the idea or the belief that you can somehow find enough correct thinking or ruminating or like reframing or replaying that will somehow make you be okay with the fact that this thing happened. Like I have to I have to erase either erase my memory or erase all bad feelings I have about that. That's the nonsense, the strategy behind REO CD, which is you didn't pick it, that happened to you. That's the nonsense part. Because that's not that's not realistic. If I just think I think Sally Winston said it. She said, like, well, yeah, you get tricked into thinking if I just think harder, if I just think more about this, then you know, I I'll find a solution, I'll find the answer, and I'll feel better. But yeah, will you?

SPEAKER_02 9:54

So some good uh common examples I hear of real event are people adults usually, and they have a memory from childhood that comes in. Maybe I don't know, they kiss their friend, something, and then it overlaps with other themes of OCD, like sexuality, OCD, morality, moral scrupulosity, things like that. And suddenly, years later, when it hasn't been a thing, as we know with anxiety, the threat response goes bang, that means something, and you need all your attention. You know, maybe you're a kid and you you you you punched another kid. Oh, but what does that mean about me? Because that really happened. I really actually hurt someone, or maybe you're doing some exploring who you are sexually at some point, and then it's hit you, and you you basically the threat response is trying to clamber your need for certainty. Also, as kids, we just do bizarre things, and I often hear this kids, teenagers, young people, we can just do bizarre things out of curiosity. Um, we explore that curiosity, and then the curiosity is sated. Real event OCD will then warp the sense of your own the own event and weaponize it against not only you but the guilt involved. And it's really important. And its best weapon is, but it really happened, yes, but the context is entirely different. You have a misfiring threat response and an anxiety disorder. Don't expect that to present to you the correct balanced phenomenology of what was happening then compared to now.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Yeah, that's a really good point. Usually, when it happened, you were a different person at a different time in a different context. But but the important part I think about that is the compulsion is I I'm if I just think and ruminate and worry more about it, then I will come to some, I can find some conclusion that guarantees me that it wasn't bad. It wasn't a bad thing, or it wasn't as bad as I think. And so the rumination or the looping through of the replay usually is trying to explain why, oh, it was fine. And then if you talk to a friend about it, the the friend will do what friends do and try to make you feel better and say, like, oh, it probably wasn't that bad. You know, you you were kids, they're not even thinking about it anymore. And in your mind, all you're thinking is, of course they're thinking about it. It was a horrible event. They're probably scarred by it. I'm a terrible person. And if anybody finds out about this, I'm gonna be ostracized. But yeah, that's the thought your brain makes. And then you get so upset by it that the upset, the level of distress tells you that's your proof that it was horrible and you have to fight against it. I'm so upset by it that I it must be really bad.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

And then you get idiots like you and I that come along saying, no, it's okay to leave it alone, but this is where it taps into the guilt anxiety thing. No, it feels irresponsible. If I leave this alone, this means I accept that. That's right. And not a good way. Like, yeah, we are trying to say accept that it happened, but no, no, I accept that and I think it's okay that I did that. Yeah. No, we're humans, we have flaws, but when it really taps deep, it feels irresponsible to leave it alone. Which leads us to the compulsion side of OCD, particularly real event OCD. Drew, what are some of the most common compulsions you would expect with real event OCD?

SPEAKER_03 13:09

Yeah, I I think a repeated asking. If it's going to be out loud, because sometimes REOCD, the event is so shameful to the person, they feel such guilt that they hide it and they don't want to ever talk about it with anybody. But if they do speak it out loud, they're constantly asking for reassurance, either from the other parties that were involved in the event or friends or trusted loved ones or counselors, or whoever. That was okay, right? It wasn't as bad as I thought, right? He's probably not really hurt by what I said, right? So it's a con you and it is never enough. What made you feel better on Tuesday will be worn off by Wednesday, and you want to ask about it again. That's why.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

Because if I was capable of doing that years ago, then what's to stop me from doing that now? That's a big one. Googling, uh, and the main one is rumination, you know, or or burying yourself down a rep a Reddit hole, or just ruminating, trying to see the event from every single angle to try and make you okay with it. Like Drew said, no, you're actually just exacerbating something that doesn't matter. Yeah. And it doesn't matter now. It doesn't mean depending on it, doesn't a lot in a lot of cases with real event OCD, the thing isn't even that bad. But for some people that have maybe done stuff in the past that's quite, you know, um morally reprehensible, you know, you're allowed to have forgiveness, you're allowed to move on. It depends. But for most people with OCD, um subjectively, it's not that bad from my point of view, but it shows you the anxiety, blows it up, and exacerbates it, and it just wants all of your attention.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

Yeah, what does this mean about me? Like, you know, maybe it it violates, you know, cultural norms or your faith or like the teachings that you grew up with. And, you know, that's constant, like, I gotta replay it again to see if I could find an angle to look at it where I don't violate my cultural norms or rules or my faith or my beliefs or my identity of who I'm supposed to be. Another thing that sometimes happens or I've seen happen before is the compulsion becomes trying to fix it. Now, I know I agree, like it is kind of a form of pure O because 99% of the time it's all mental compulsions, right? So, but I have had a few people who have said, well, now I really am kind of ruining a relationship because I keep trying to apologize, confess, make it better, compensate. They cannot get off the event that happened between them and a friend or a loved one or an old, maybe an ex-partner or a current partner, and their excessive looping, never-ending compensation to fix it is actually causing more damage than the event itself.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Yeah, when that's when it overlaps with relationship OCD, which we did an episode on. Go check it out. Uh, I can't remember when it was, but you can you can scroll. You're more than capable. We can we believe in you. Um and yeah, and that's what I mean. Real event OCD often always overlaps with other themes of OCD because it is a weapon in the OCD arsenal to get your attention. I say a weapon, you know, I I don't believe anxiety is out to get you and and hurt you and things like that, but you know, this particularly with guilt, an OCD is almost often taps into guilt, you know, in some way or another. Um what you need to realize is that hold on, I'm seeing metacognitively, I'm seeing what anxiety and OCD is doing here to keep my attention, you know. Yeah, but what if insert this? Yeah, but it really happened when you insert that. Yeah, but you've got to be smart here. Your metacognitive awareness, step outside and look and go, hold on, my threat response, which is called what? I can't remember.

SPEAKER_03 17:02

Oh, yeah, he's around somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

Amygdala. There you go, is firing off. So I am going to see things in a warped way, in an exacerbated way. I'm not gonna see it for what it is. I can come back to this when I'm not in threat. But as we know, when the amygdala's fired up, we we feel like we need to do something. We need to do something that that stress state of fight or flight is just, oh, I need to do something. And often we try to get out of something by digging deeper, i.e., ruminating, solving, working out, trying to be okay, sating, etc. No, no, no. The tricky bit is the willful tolerance of turning your back on this and being, I'm all right with this.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Yeah. I think a key point to touch on at this point would be a lot of people who listen to us who are dealing with whether it's OCD, different themes, or anxiety disorders in general, will somehow misinterpret like the approach as saying, well, I do exposures and I and I tolerate to learn that the bad thing doesn't actually happen. Okay. For the most part, when your anxious mind is making up catastrophes that are highly unlikely to happen, there's certainly, you know, a component of that. But it's really not about that. It's not about trying to learn that the catastrophe that your brain is is predicting with other anxiety disorders or other forms of OCD or stuck on with RE OCD in the past, that well, we're trying to show that that's wrong and it'll never happen. That's never going to happen. So, what I'm what I'm trying to do in recovery is I'm going to teach myself through exposures and tolerating that the thing I fear will never happen. And I think REOCD, even though it's different, does speak to the fact that, like, no, what you're really after here is even if that thing did happen, because challenging things happen to living human beings, I would work through it. And I think REO CD, although it's it's it's you know, it's a the special form of OCD or it's your own form of OCD, speaks to this overall anxiety concept. That, like, no, it is I am cannot put my brain around the idea that I have to just passively accept that I might feel bad or have bad feelings or be scared or have difficult things happen to me. I should be able to fix that, shouldn't I? Not always. Not I think that's a core concept here. You don't get to decide to not feel things.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Yeah, definitely. And it's always the uncertainty that we all fear. Um, and it's the uncertainty usually around what that means now. You know, if I was capable of doing that, then I'm uncertain what I'm capable of doing now, even though we're feeling remorseful, guiltful, guilty, or just questioning sometimes, not even remorse and guilt, but just I'm questioning that event that happened is so in contrast to who I am now, it makes me feel uncertain, and then it taps into other core fears of anxiety disorders, i.e., what if I lose control? What if I get caught? What if I get found out? What if people see the real me? What if I don't know who the real me? Blah, blah, etc. etc. When actually, Occam's razor, you know, none of us are perfect. You're here, you're already struggling if you've got an anxiety disorder, and then this just adds on top of it to pile onto the misery. And the good antidote to this is a bit of compassion. It's like, okay, yeah, that happened, whatever, this doesn't apply now. And actually, if I look back through my life, a lot of what I do is values-driven, and that's all that matters.

SPEAKER_03 20:36

That compassion, I think, is so important. And I think where it shows itself is being able to accept like who I am as I am right now, which means, yeah, that thing happened. It was embarrassing, or I I did someone dirty. You're right, that it happened. I can't get, I can't get past it, or I can't change it. But can I still accept that people make mistakes? I might make more mistakes. Like this happens. Everybody, this is a universal experience for human beings. The difference between me, says the RECD, the compassionate or self-compassionate RE O C D sufferer, is I can see that my reaction to it is way off the charts. But everybody around me, when I look at all the humans around me every day, experiences shame and guilt and embarrassment and regret and anger and all kinds of regrets because of things they did or things that happened. It's universal. So be a person and let yourself be a person. That's part of that compassion. Demanding for whatever reason that, like, no, I should be able to erase bad feelings or I shouldn't be bothered by this. Why can't I get past this? You ever hear people then berate themselves? Like, I know it wasn't as big a deal as my mind is making it out. What's wrong with me? Why can't I let this go? And then like this guy chimes in. It's Craig the critic. And like the fact that you are stuck on that issue then becomes you know, there's proof of defect right there. It's nasty, man.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

It's good that you mentioned uh Craig the critic is Is the CEO of Real Event O C D.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

He's the C Yes, he is. He's the chief executive officer of REO C D.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Yeah, he he really is. I always like the term REOCD. It's like someone who's obsessive, compulsive about religious education.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

Or REO Speedwagon. Take a RE O Speedbag. I mean, I can't get it out of my head.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

So if you're someone listening and and and you can resonate with uh if you're the person that that's immediately got the haymaker wind up and about to launch with the but mine really happened, it doesn't matter. Yeah, but what I did was bad, it doesn't matter. But what I did caused me uncertainty, and it could have a catastrophic um consequence in my current life, my current relationship, my current job. What if I've missed something? It doesn't matter. Yeah. How dare you tell me you don't know me that it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

Right. And it's yeah, we know, you know, and sometimes I'm a little flippant, I guess, but I'm I'm trying to what I'm trying to reflect back to people is I know, like, but but it really did happen. What are you supposed to do when it really did happen? I know it really happened, and I'm sorry that it happened. Like, you know, it was a very unpleasant thing for you and your family or your friends, whoever it was, but like still doesn't mean that compulsing every day to the point where it's really negatively impacting your function is the right strategy. Does it, you know, so more than one thing can be true at a time. This thing happened that I wish didn't, true. I'm very impacted by yes, I have memories and emotions and thoughts and opinions about it, yes. But also, I can just I have to let that be. I don't have to fix it. There's nothing I could do to fix it anyway. I could just have to. I always try and lately have been saying, you know, feelings aren't things to fix, they're just experiences to have. So you have to have these two. That's hard for some people to learn, I think. It's really hard to learn that. If you're 40 years old and you never learned how to actually feel feelings, you just ran from them or were told to run from them your whole life. This is a big ask. So let's acknowledge that.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

Yeah. A good one to tap into compassion is if that was your best mate or loved one, thank you. What would you say to them? Right. And I guarantee you wouldn't be as harsh or critical. You wouldn't say to a loved one, right? You need to sit at home for three weeks in a dark room and ruminate until you solve this. You'd be like, What the hell are you doing? You're allowed to be you're allowed to access your life, you're allowed to do these things. The difference is you probably already felt the remorse, the guilt, and all those things, if this event happened, or whatever the emotion was. But again, anxiety, intrusive thoughts in particular are often random and bizarre and silly. And it just picks something, usually when the stress jug is overflowed. Great episode, by the way, if you want to go listen to the stress jug, and it will just try and find a threat. If the threat's not in front of you, then it's not bothered. Sometimes it might find a threat in your body and you develop health anxiety. And if it can't find a threat there, it will go through your thoughts. And guess what? We have so many different, multiple thoughts all the time, whether it's thoughts, random thoughts, daydreaming, or memories. And sometimes, through the powers of association, randomness, whatever, you just have a memory that pops into your head. But if you're already in that stress state and your stress drug is full, like all OCD, it will just go bang. There we go. That's the threat. I was trying, I was tasked to find where the threat was. There's no threat around me, there's no threat in me. It's that thought, and that's that's how real event OCD starts. Just walking through the park, enjoying your bologna sandwich, listening to your favorite podcast, not by us, and we'll just be like, bang, and that's it. And everyone with OCD, intrusive thoughts, they know that moment that it starts because it's like a whoosh. That's the amygdala and Craig the critic, teaming up in an ultimate tag team match to try and take you out. And your aim is to pull out the cage and tables and suplex them both through multiple stack tables and jump off the cage, pinning them both with two. Sorry, I've gone off on a run.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

Yeah, and I can endorse that plan. I mean, like an OCD cage match, you versus your OCD, I root for you 100%. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny because there's a good clue in there. You know, in the ICBT world, it you know, can you notice when you flip, like when you flip into the bubble, when you go into the OCD bubble? Like as soon as you get that, like, but what if, uh, but what if, and you get that that catch and boom, like that, that hit of adrenaline. Like now you you just walked into the bubble. Now I'm in that like a reality distortion field of OCD, and recognizing that moment can be huge. Like, ah, I just walked into the bubble where it's the bizarro world, and all I care about is my brain telling me to do something, do something about this. Uh, but it's just when I have to recognize them in the bubble, and I don't have to, I shouldn't obey that. I would have to chill so I can walk back out of the bubble. It's like like Dune. You have to walk slowly through the edge of the bubble, right? So there's that thing in Dune where they have the shields, but you you can't stab the guy, but you can slowly stab the guy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Let's think of another. Let's say you've been portaled, yeah, you've been portaled to a swimming pool full of custard and it's waist high. How are you gonna get out of that? Run as fast as you can. Hell no. You can't run through custard because it's the similar properties to concrete once it's hit with enough force. Yeah, but you can slowly walk to the side of the pool and get out. But if you try to run out of a pool of custard, nope, you ain't going nowhere. Yeah. Oh, what an analogy. Now I want custard.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

You bologna sandwiches, custard. I think you're hungry. Now I'm hungry. I am a bit hungry to be. Although that would be a horrible diet. Please don't eat custard and bologna sandwiches.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

I mean, once in a while, I guess, but also what a waste of custard for for for like if someone was just to just to prove a point. You know, here's 70 gallons of custard that I have procured. Please walk. Now stand in the middle and try and run out of it. Oh, you see, you couldn't, right? What we're doing with all this custard.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

I feel like they maybe did that on Mythbusters. Or if they didn't, they should restart the show and do that. Can you run out of a giant swimming pool? An Olympic, I don't want 70 gallons, I want an Olympic swimming pool full of custard, or I'm not showing up. Go big or go home.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

It's crazy. If you've if you jumped from a high place into water, you would obviously hit the water, and if you're shaped correctly, you go in. If you hit custard, it forms harder than concrete. So if you're ever in a situation, listeners, where you need to jump from a high place to avoid a fire or something, and there's two pools of things, go for the water because the custard will not end well.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

This uh this podcast has officially hit a new low. The best advice ever given on distorted is don't jump into the swimming pool full of custard.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

And not only that, you would hit the custard, die, but then as you slow down, it would suck you in, and it would be the end of Terminator 2.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

Oh he he does the thumbs up, yeah. But except you wouldn't have thumbs eternity in case the custard, nobody wants to go out that way. I want a Viking funeral, not a custard burial.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Anyway, but anyway, real event OCD is that we don't fight in. I like to use the um the lenses, and I I say this all the time. I practice the it's the lens that you're in. You know, you when you go on a your first date with someone you really like and it goes really well, you walk home and you have rose-tinted glasses on, you see the world, you couldn't care less because you're in a good mood, you know. When you wake up after three hours' sleep and it's been disturbed, you've got the angry lenses on, and everything you hate and voices and sounds, and you're so grumpy because you've got the angry glasses on. When you've got the OCD anxiety glasses on, everything looks like a threat, including your thoughts. And I think it's really important. But those glasses will change throughout the day, and just say to yourself, actually, no, I'm seeing this through the lens of anxiety and threat here, not the lens of contentment or happiness or whatever as it goes as it moves throughout the day.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

And then, you know, the logical question, of course, everybody would always ask is okay, but how? How do I see through the lens? How do I, how do I put on know that I how do I become aware that I have my OCD lens on? Practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. It's like it's you can't, it's so important, I think, for us to always say that you can't just decide today, like insta, okay, cool. I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure I notice my lenses today, and then everything's copacetic. No, like it's not gonna happen that way. It's just practice, practice, practice, practice. You're practicing awareness, you're practicing mindfulness, you're practicing all of those things. That's why we use them. There's a reason why those are here.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

So also it's pretty obvious when you've got the OCD lenses on because you have the urge to compulse and you feel frightened, and everything feels urgent. You know, nothing feels urgent when you've got the lens of calm on.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

Right, that's exactly right. But the trick there is oh, yeah, you're right. When it feels urgent, that's when I'm in the OCD bubble. But I believe the urgency. Why would I discount it? Like the urgency is real. What do you mean, don't be urgent? What but that's your hint that you're in the OCD bubble? I know, but I gotta, but the urgency is still real, it's very difficult. That's why patience, yeah, like give yourself time. These are hard things to learn and to put into to practice. So I don't know. Should we do some community stuff? Do we have any more to say about it?

SPEAKER_02 31:30

That was real event OCD. Again, if you struggle with it, you're not alone, it's very common. Yep. Uh, just try to understand why it's there and understand how the compulsions are keeping you there. And yeah, note down your compulsions, write them down if you want, and try to take them out one by one. Um, and then practice the principles of willfully tolerating the uncertainty and tap into some of that compassion as well. If you're someone who's very down on yourself, constantly criticizing yourself, work on that compassion. We've actually got uh a really good guest on soon, Dr. Elaine Beaumont, one of the pioneers of compassion focused therapy, and she'll be able to throw us some tips our way too.

SPEAKER_03 32:08

Yeah, sounds good. So we'll do, I have a written Did It Anyway that I want to read. Um, this person did not give us the chance to uh the permission to use their name, but I'm gonna read it anyway, and then I think we have an audio question we'll wrap up with. So here's our did it anyway. This person writes, and thank you to the question sent or the did it anyway sender inner. Um, I was in a pretty severe mountain biking accident last summer that resulted in two days in the ICU with a brain bleed, concussion, broken wrist, and facial lacerations that needed plastic surgery. Ouch, that's really difficult. I developed crippling health anxiety, GAD, and depression after the crash. At first, I was terrified to drive, go to the store, or go to work. But over time, that fear has lifted. I still struggle with long trips away from home and new activities. Why did it anyway was that I went skiing for the first time this week. I was overwhelmed with fear as I accelerated down the slopes and even had what I think were flashbacks to my crash, which I usually have no memory of. However, I went up the lift and down the mountain time after time, and I actually had a blast. So yeah, that's a super courageous thing to do right there. Like that gets really good. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot in that, and I think what there's in that is hope. Even again, when a bad thing happens, this person literally had a really bad accident and was clearly hospitalized with a lot of serious injuries. Even that is overcomable, not easy.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

That's courageous, that's courageous. Well done. Well done. And um I'm kind of kind of whoever you are, I'm trying to picture your face as you got there and you're like, Yeah, I did this, despite all that going on. Well done.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

Yeah, a whole lot. Um, should we do our question? It's an audio question. Let's hear what uh this person has to say. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Hi, Josh and Drew. You can use my name. My name's Laura. I'm from Perth, Western Australia. I've been listening to your podcast recently, um, and I'm actually having quite a bad time of my depersonalization, derealisation, panic disorder, agrophobia, health anxiety, you name it, I've got it. Um, I've dealt with this for the best part of 15 years, however, it's flared up in the last six months, and I'm a busy mum to three children. Um, and this is more of a question to you both, actually. I am notorious for having really vivid dreams. Um, is this common at sort of in times of stress and anxiety? Um, because these dreams actually I feel can contribute towards my anxiety and panic disorder. Because I'm prone to the DPDR, I feel like having vivid dreams then leave me a bit spaced out through the day. Last night was the first time that I've experienced it, could have been like a premature awakening from sleep and like sleep paralysis, where in my sleep I was in bed next to my husband, and I feel like I couldn't talk or wake up and felt really heavy. Um, but I knew I was waking up, but it was just a dream, and that's really left me quite sort of a bit freaked out today. Are these things common with anxiety disorders? If you could let me know, I would really appreciate that. Love your work, guys. Bye.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

Good question. Thank you, Laura. And uh hang in there. Sounds difficult. What do you think, dude?

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Yeah, it's really common. Uh it's common with uh a lot of anxiety disorders. If you think about it, if we spend a majority of our day inwards, we're frightened, we're dealing with intrusive thoughts, or stuck in anticipatory anxiety. Often we'll dream about what we think about in the day. Also, if we're anxious a lot of the day and you're struggling with the DPDR and threat monitoring and stuff like that, we're in a state of hypervigilance. So, yeah, when we do sleep, we're probably not getting the optimum sleep cycles. It's still cool that you can sleep. Don't don't try and work, don't worry about that. But yeah, like sometimes because we're in a state of hypervigilance and we have to shut off to go to sleep, um, yeah, it's really common to be kind of swimming in the rem part of sleep. Um, I've got REM in my head now. No, it's come back. And um that REM part of sleep, which is the dreaming, the rapid eye movement um part of our sleep. And yeah, and bear in mind if you're spending a lot of the day in threat monitoring, makes all the sense in the world that you keep waking up because your body and brain are so used to being in a threat monitoring mode, yeah, that you would have really vivid dreams. I certainly had it when I was struggling. What about you, Drew?

SPEAKER_03 36:33

I used to have agoraphobia dreams. I don't know why. I I used to I'm in New York and I used to dream that I would find myself in San Francisco, which I love San Francisco, a great city. I didn't know how I got there, I have no idea how I got there. I'm fully agoraphobic. I can't go like half a mile from my house without freaking out. But somehow I'm in San Francisco, and now how the hell am I gonna get home? And I I would panic in my dreams. I would be freaking out, and I would wake up feeling really upset. Were they vivid? Oh, incredibly vivid, incredibly vivid. I I can remember like specific streets. I remember like dreaming over and over. I was in San Francisco several times for like trade shows and stuff, being in the Moscone. If you're in San Francisco, you know the Moscone Center, like very, very clear. Like I was really there, and I would wake up really upset, like like afraid, heart pounding, you know, like yeah. So that was it was super common without a doubt.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Yeah, yeah. Uh uh very and again, I said it's to do with obsessive compulsive. Um, people with uh OCD and intrusive thoughts, it's very common to dream about your intrusive thoughts, which of course people with OCD will be like, Well, I'm dreaming about it, so it must mean that's me. No, you you often just dream about what you think about in the day because sleep is the time where the brain just files away all the experiences and memories, puts them in the appropriate drawers, and sometimes you get an insight into that. Yeah, oh, I'm dreaming about that, dream about that, dream about that. Um yeah, Laura, it sounds like you've already got a lot of worries on there. Don't let this be an extra one on the pile. You've got this, it's not it's not special, it's not a thing. You've got this, keep going, and well done for you for managing courageously living with an anxiety disorder uh and having three kids as well. You've got this.

SPEAKER_03 38:14

I might add one little thing. She says, Well, I think it contributes to my anxiety disorder. I don't know if it does. And here we are. Right. It makes me feel a certain way. The anxiety disorder is defined by the fact that I now have a threat reaction to how I feel. That's what the disorder is. Disorder, the disorder isn't how you feel, it's just not. The disorder is defined by I'm afraid of how I feel. And therefore, now I have to ask about, well, dreams make me feel a certain way too, that I don't like. And it frightens me and it's disturbing. That is all correct. The disorder is no, no, I can't be disturbed or or frightened or experience things that I don't like because I they're dangerous and I must escape from them. So be careful about like, well, that's adding to my anxiety disorder. It's making you anxious. The disorder is how you respond to that. So I think it's important because there's power in that. Just saying. All right, I'm done.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

Absolutely. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in. Uh, thank you, Drew. It's a pleasure as always. Find us at disorder.fm, send in your voice notes or emails, find us on social media, The Anxious Truth and Anxiety Josh. And uh yeah, sign up to the newsletter on the website, and you can be the first to hear about upcoming roundtables. Um, thanks for tuning in. Yeah, thanks guys. We'll see you next week. We're out. Uh before you go, Drew, um, what's your favorite food to have with custard? Bologna sandwich, clearly. That's disgusting.

SPEAKER_03 39:34

I'm eating anyway.