WHY Did I Develop An Anxiety Disorder? (Episode 82)

SPEAKER_02 0:01

In your experience, is there something that could be a catalyst for anxiety disorders to exacerbate when essentially there isn't one major life event that it could be attributed to?

SPEAKER_03 0:11

What I thought was a good idea at the time was just think, go through my memories and try and find out why. If I could pinpoint the Big Bang of when it started, then I could work out how to get to stop it. There's an accumulated stress, it overflows, and that's when the threat response misfires, and that's where we get the scary symptoms, the scary feelings, the racing thoughts, the obsession, the inwards compulsion. Because the stress drug is overflowing, and I think that's how anxiety disorders start.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Anxiety symptoms are the same, look the same as somebody who would be stressed. The difference is when we start to develop that anxiety disorder, now the stress response then becomes the threat response.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

Welcome to Disorder. This is episode 82 entitled Why Did I Get an Anxiety Disorder? I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. Now I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm based in Manchester in the UK. I'm an author, podcast host, Instagram prancer arounder, and also just your everyday guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

And I am Drew Linsolata, the other co-host of this fine podcast. I'm a therapist practicing under supervision in New York, also specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders, also a former sufferer of these problems for many years of my life. I've written some books about this. I talk about it on social media. I'm tired of talking about myself. So, like, welcome. Here we are in episode 82. Why did I develop an anxiety disorder?

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Good question. Absolutely. I can't wait to get stuck into this today. So it's it we were looking at the questions that are sent in sent in at disordered.fm and a lot of them kind of revolve around around this topic. So thank you for your suggestions and for them informing today's episode. Um before we crack onto it though, I just want to give people a heads up. Um we're starting disordered round table. You might have heard us mention it, but um the dates are booked in and the demand's been really high, so we really appreciate that. Uh, the more demand, the more disordered roundtables we will do.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

If you if you're um unsure what that is, it's uh Drew and I, and a few people will get together and we talk about certain topics. The first one is health anxiety. Um we've just closed two roundtables for that. So where you join us online and sit at the uh virtual table and we talk about uh the experiences, we answer your questions, and yeah, we there's a place to talk about it, and we'll share the best knowledge that we can. So if you are interested in that, go on to disorder.fm and sign up to the newsletter and you'll get the information first about it.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

And it is in fact a round table like Camelot. It's not, it's Zoom, but we can pretend.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

I'm Lancelot. No, I'm King Arthur, no Lancelot.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

You're really going back and forth on this. He's having a hard time deciding who he wants to be.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

Yeah. So when you move when you log on to Disorder Round Table, I will be in full chain mail.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

As if you're not now. Come on, it's it's Thursday in the UK. He's wearing it right now, people. The sword of Excalibur. Uh yeah, I'm looking forward to that. It's gonna be great. Small group discussion. And so anyway.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

Cool, uh, because we love the we love the community here. Um, in fact, come I was thinking about can we start the episode with uh with a nice community win?

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yeah, we could totally do that because we got a couple of really good ones. So let's do this one first, because I think this one is kind of cool. So let's have it.

SPEAKER_05 3:46

Hi Drew and Josh. Um this is Alison, you can use my name. Um I'm suffering from anxiety and depression at the moment. Um, last week I decided to go to of all things a belly dancing class. Um was expecting to hide at the back of the room, but unfortunately there are only two of us there, so it ended up in a fluorescent lighted room with mirrors everywhere. Go into my second class. I'm absolutely terrified. Um, but hey, I'm gonna do it anyway. Okay, thank you, bye.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

All right, Allison. Yes, get in. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

I love that one.

SPEAKER_02 4:32

We have all the good ones. Bring us all the dancing did it anyways on December.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

Yeah, we've had salsa, so we've had belly dancing. You know, anyone who's going doing an Argentine tango, uh, feel free to send that in.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Dances that we've never heard. Any Pacific Islanders that want to do a haka or something. Come on, bring it. Like we're here for you guys. Anyway, good win there, belly dancing. And uh what let's go to also a community thing, which is a question that came in. I won't say the person, but that led us to today's topic. Is that it's a health anxiety question, uh, but it's not so much about health anxiety. This person says, um, I have a few little health hiccups and life hiccups here and there over the last 10 years, but nothing critical to my life, and probably nothing too different from your average person. And a lot of it has been related to my health anxiety in one way or another. Here's the main part in your experience, is there something that could be a catalyst for anxiety disorders to exacerbate when essentially there isn't one major life event that it could be attributed to? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time and thank you for that question, sender inner, because I don't want to say your name, but like, why? Why is there anything that may have triggered this? And that leads us to today's topic.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

What do you think? Why? Why do I feel like this? Was it a question you often asked yourself back back when you were struggling?

SPEAKER_02 5:44

It it was a question that I asked myself. I will admit that I think my version of the question might have been more as an like as a uh expression of like exasperation than an actual question. If I think back on it, I'm not sure that I tried that hard to find out why. I just like, why? Come on, why? Why is this happening to me? Like that frustrated thing.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

I was obsessed with why. Um, I think I've mentioned before one of my compulsions was to ruminate to try and find the miracle thought to make it all go away. Because I had this idea, and we're talking about anxiety narratives again a little bit here, but like I had this idea that I suddenly feel this way. I don't feel like my usual self, I feel like something bad's gonna happen. What if I go crazy, etc.? Uh, and I didn't know what to do with that. So I just drew upon what I thought was a good idea at the time, was just think, go through my memories and try and find out why. If I could pinpoint the the the big bang of when it of when it started, then I could work out how to get to stop it. And now I know I was just fueling rumination, but yeah, I spent many hours, many days ruminating, asking why, why, why do I suddenly feel like this?

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Or what what is the cause of? I think one of the things that I did ask a lot of why was on a micro level, like why does my heart do that? Why do I get the feeling like I'm short of breath? It wasn't why is this overall thing happening to me? That was more of an expression of like frustration, but each individual symptom I would try to figure out why. Why is my why is my quad twitching? Why is my my cheek muscle twitching? Like, why is this happening? If I and in that situation, I think in our context, most of the time, the question why, and people will sometimes say, Yeah, but I'm just curious. Are you though, or are you hoping that if you could figure out why, then you can find a solution? It's either that was me. Yeah, I can either find a solution or I can find that 100% certainty that it's safe. It's okay that this is happening. If I don't know why, then it I then I it doesn't feel right. This can be dangerous.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

I'm I'm the kind of person who likes to know how something works before so I can understand it. Um particularly helpful for you know psychoeducation trying to kind of save me and help me overcome that. Um, but I often ask answer this with with clients and things. It's you know, I spend a lot of time wondering why I'm now suddenly in this disordered state. Um, and the analogy I use quite a lot um is the stress jug um or stress receptacle of your choice. Maybe it's a cara, maybe it's a bucket, maybe it's something, I don't know. A stress pint glass, and we all have one. The size of that stress drug is dependent on things like genetics. So if your parents are anxious, you know, um then you're screwed. It's like my my my anxiety, my parents are anxious, so my stress drug is relatively small compared to that one friend who could nap through the apocalypse, just chilled about everything. Whereas I'm like, oh, you know, and so it just means you've got to be mindful of what goes in the stress drug. I have a theory that anxiety disorders start because our stress drug, particularly as we go into adulthood, uh, and all the things like responsibility, identity, functioning as an adult, and life events, uh, our stress drug overflows, and when it overflows, the threat response, called the amygdala. We never mention that on this show.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

We never did. Amygdala. Wait, let me do it again, just for clarity. Amygdala. There you go.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

The amygdala, the threat response, um, doesn't understand accumulated subjective stress, and so fires off just in case you're in danger. And have you noticed that pretty much all anxiety is just in case? Oh, yeah. Um, and that's what happened. It's what happened to me, and it's what I see in a lot of people where there's an accumulated stress, it overflows, and that's when the threat response misfires, and that's where we get the scary symptoms, the scary feelings, the racing thoughts, the obsession, the inwards compulsion because the stress drug's overflowing, and I think that's how anxiety disorders start.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Yeah, you're probably right. I mean, I I'm a big fan of your stress drug analogy. I don't think I would use a jug. I'm gonna use something more American, though. Although we use jugs down south. I don't know. A moonshine. It's a jug. You know what it is? It is a jug, but at one point it held moonshine. So there you go. Um a keg, a keg, it's a stress keg. You know what I find interesting about the stress jug analogy, which I think is great, and I've stolen it and used it unabashedly all the time now. But I think one of the things that we, when you use the word stress, I think it's important because when we are stressed, if everybody has a friend that always seems like they're under the gun, there's a lot of sorry, Warcraft. Come on, man. That's a birthday notification of a person that I have not even talked to in like 12 years. Come on. Are you sure you want to unsubscribe from OKCupid? I swear it's just not okay. Um, but the stress thing, we all have friends, we know, like, oh, I'm super stressed out, I'm not sleeping really well, like, man, I'm walking around with a knot on my stomach. Like, if a friend said that to you, you would be like, Oh, yeah, that's that's stress, man. That's what bodies do that. You would not question it. Anxiety symptoms are the same, right? So they they look the same as as somebody who would be stressed, except that the difference is when we start to develop that anxiety disorder, now the stress response, which we then becomes the threat response. Like, oh, wait, because now I'm gonna try and figure it out or like build some sort of like story around it, which the stressed person that's experienced the normal stress response is not doing. They just understand my life is a mess right now and I'm feeling it in my body. They get it. We don't get it, people like us. We want to like that can't be, it's not it. Something this must mean something is wrong. That's the difference.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

Yeah, I love that. It's when the difference between stress and threat. Um I have a theory around um sorry, I have a theory around DPDR, where I think that when we're stressed, we experience DPDR, and I think it's a symptom of stress, not anxiety. Only when the stress drug overflows that the threat response needs to find a source of threat, and so it latches on to the DPDR. The same with funky symptoms like eye floaters or tinnitus, where I'd wager they've always been there, but suddenly when the stress drug overflows, the threat response is like, it's that, that's the anomaly. Yeah, but have you noticed next time you are stressed and you're uh um and it's nothing to do with your anxiety disorder, you're just stressed at work, stressed with family. Look at the room around you. When you're stressed, the room looks different, everything looks different. You are in some kind of state of dissociation, but you're not bothered because the the threat response and the amygdala's like, eh, I'm not gonna pick up on that now. But when the drug or keg overflows, I'm pretty confident that the threat response just goes, oh yeah, it's that. And that's why we can often become hyperfixated on anxious symptoms.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

Yeah, I I think that has to do with that sensitivity to what's going on inside of us, our own thoughts, our own emotions, around bodily sensations. Like people who develop anxiety disorders tend to score high on that person, that you know, the big five traits, neuroticism, not a bad thing. It just means we're very focused inside on what we're going, where we're really invested in our own stuff, our own internal experiences. The stressed person knows why that's happening and that's enough for them. Where the anxiety disorder person is like, no, no, I I this must mean something. I can't attach it to like the fact that my life is a mess or I've been through a lot for the last 18 years, whatever it is. No, no, no. My feelings, my thoughts, my sensations must have some story behind them. And then you then you start to hyperfixate, and then they become the threat. Since you ignore the external threat or the external stressor, whatever it may be. Um no, no, no, I only reason based on what's I'd me. Then since you can't find the trigger, your feeling is the trigger. The trigger you hate then becomes the self-perpetuating trigger. Yep. Yep. Congratulations. You got an anxiety disorder. Yeah, we're all good. Thanks everybody for we'll uh send the Nobel Prize in the post. But that's a thing. Like, I reason, and I think a lot of our listeners might resonate. This might resonate for them. Like, I reason based on how I feel so often. I go on my gut, I need to check in on my feelings. I uh how I feel tells me the way things really are. Like I reason based on how I feel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:21

That's a that's a powerful one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Well, I I think a lot of the heart of anxiety disorders, especially things like OCD and GAD, are I feel therefore, which is backwards. Usually people who are non-anxious would say, I feel because anxiety disorder will make you say, I feel therefore. Like, yeah, feeling is feeling you're allowed to feel, but now I'm gonna try and draw conclusions or inferences from from how I my internal experience, which is not always active.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

Feel like something bad's about to happen, therefore is about to happen.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

That's exactly I feel this powerful fear in me, therefore, it must have some sort of special meaning and actually be dangerous because I feel it so much.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

When actually, maybe your stress drugs just overflowed and that threat response has just misfired.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Yeah, right. It could be. So when people say, like, well, why is this happening? And the the big scope is why did I develop an anxiety disorder? The smaller would be I've been doing so much better. Why am I still having this thought? Or why is my body still doing this? Because your body is doing scared body things, your brain is doing brain things. That's it. That's the why. Can you accept that? It's hard.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

Horrendous John Mayer song in my head. The body is the one lady.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

The baddie. The way he says it, the baddie. Oh, I mean that makes me cringe. I mean, great guitar player, don't get me wrong, but the baddie thing always made me cringe. I don't know why. Sorry, sorry, oh my dang, it's rogue. Yeah, and that and after you told them to look for depersonalization when they're stressed, like 10,000 listeners are like, ooh, new fear unlocked. I didn't have DPDR, but now I do. Thanks, Josh. Yay, yay. Oh my goodness. But these these are good questions, and they're hard questions, I think. The why question is such a hard question for an anxious person to let go of. The only answer I might have is Josh's stress analogy right now.

SPEAKER_03 16:19

That's it. But I think you can answer the why. You just can't pinpoint it to a singularity. A why is unless you've got like quite acute specific PTSD, you can pinpoint that to a singularity. Like I've got symptoms of PTSD, I'm having flashbacks and associations about this specific traumatic moment. Yes. But when it comes to anxiety disorders, I still think you can ask why, just not in a single not find that singular um solution. So I use the stress drug uh more and more because as a therapist, um, I my role is to identify what's in the stress drug. Now, automatically, everyone with an anxiety disorder, their stress drug keeps getting overflowed. Imagine like a pint being overpoured constantly. It's uh it's overflows because the biggest thing in there currently is the fear of fear, the fear and misinterpretation of fear. So, as a therapist, in my modality, I want to stop that pint from overflowing. So, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna address the fear of fear. So, we use psychoeducation, we talk about what's happening, you're not going crazy, etc. It's very common. And then when we the fear of that lessens, it stops overflowing. However, the jug is still full. Yeah, so I want to know what happened to get to that point, and that's when we look at stress, both positive and negative. So, negative stress might be actually I was going through grief at that point, I was going through a divorce, you know. Uh, my my kid has an illness that I'm trying to address with them. Uh, maybe I lost my job, and then even deep in the recesses of the drug is stuff from childhood and our identity. Like I'm weak, I don't show emotions, etc. No, I'm strong, sorry, and I don't show emotions. And if I show them I'm weak, and in order for me to have value, I must have X amount of money and look a certain way, and I must have approval from others in order for me to have etc. That's deep in the drug. And so what I like to do as a therapist is yeah, stop the drug from overflowing, get off the hamster wheel of anxiety disorders, but then take a preventative approach in a sense of well, let's look at why, what built up to that, and not to forget positive stress is that a lot of people develop anxiety disorders after good good things, so like, oh, I got married, or you know, I I had a kid, or I've just moved house, I've got a promotion, and then bam, suddenly the anxiety disorder kicks in because that was potentially the proverbial straw you know that broke the camel's back, and that was the bit of stress that made the stress jug overflow. Uh, and I even apply this to panic attacks. I had a panic attack from nowhere. Did you? Yeah, what were you doing around that week? Oh, yeah, actually, I had quite a lot going on. And yeah, whilst it felt like it came from nowhere, my drug was actually overflowing and it did catch me off guard.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

This is we got another banger of an episode going on here. That was spectacular. You know what? I'm giving you this. Oh, thanks. You got it. That was really great because I think it speaks so directly to the whole thing. When I said to kick off that whole thing, sometimes you just have to accept that the stress drug analogy is the answer right now. If you don't start there, then you can't stop the overflowing. Like you can't get to the other stuff. Like, no, I I can't, I need to find the actual root cause stress so I can I can mitigate that and learn how to like be better at that and like be more zen and cut ties and like cut out toxicity. No, because you still have the fear of fear and it's always it's gonna keep overflowing your jug. So first you've got to stop drawing.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

Yeah, yeah. When you draw it, what's what's stressing you out right now? Yeah, how the anxiety itself while that's in the stress jug.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

That's exactly right. So you can't empty the stress jug if you're still afraid of how you feel. Oh, but I gotta find the actual stress so I can fix that so I stop being afraid. No, you're still afraid of how you feel. And I think that speaks to the, you know, and we've seen it, and this is not accusatory in any way. It's actually a little bit heartbreaking. We know people in the community that do the dig, dig, dig, and they have another epiphany every two weeks of, oh, it was this. I remember when my mom did that. Yeah, those things are important, but yet they can't understand why they're still anxious all day long or they're still having panic attacks. But I figured it out. Yeah, but you're still afraid of how you feel, so that will keep overflowing. I call it I for me, it's the fire thing. I won't go into my thing, but like first we got to put out the fire, then maybe we can work on that box of matches that keeps accidentally lighting a new fire.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

If you want to, yeah. Maybe definitely you can never completely empty the stress jug, but it's nice to lighten the load a bit. 100%. Um and it's a shout out as well to people that have perhaps had a mismatch modality for their own therapy. So you know, I see a lot of people that you've, you know, I've seen therapists, it was really helpful. I've actually addressed some issues from my childhood and about attachment and things like that. And um, I process grief in therapy, but I've still got this anxiety disorder. That's still helpful, but it's not what was on your priority list. But you've still emptied out some of the stress drug there. So when you do overcome the fear and misinterpretation of fear and stop the stress drug from overflowing, you've actually, you know, you've done some good work there already as well. You've you've addressed other issues, just things that weren't high on the priority list for now. Um, and it doesn't matter which way you do it because I hear a lot of people, oh, I've wasted my time in therapy, I'm still anxious. I don't think you've wasted your time.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Right.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

You've helped future you with other issues that might crop up in other aspects of your life because you're more than your anxiety disorder. But anyone with an anxiety disorder has wants the urgency of turn this off now.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Right.

SPEAKER_03 21:59

But it's okay with. What what way you do it? And that's all right. That's why I always ask people, like, particularly clients and things. It's like, right, we've drawn our stress jug. I love a formulation, very CBT. Uh, I love a formulation. I'm like, and then I asked them, like, what's the most pressing thing that you want out of this stress jug? And sometimes they'll say, Well, you know, I I haven't processed my mother's death, yeah, but I haven't really had time to think about that because I'm scared of going to the park. I'm like, okay, so what's the priority? And they're like, Yeah, I think I'd rather work on my fear of the park and agrophobia, and then when I feel comfortable and confident, explore the other things in my stress jug.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And I think people like us who do this kind of work, we don't, we're not just trying to help you not panic. Like, I care about your your general wellness, like you're trying to improve your general wellness, which means that things like stress reduction and stress management and emotional processing, they matter because that's also part of relapse prevention. So cool, you did all your exposure, you learn you don't have to be afraid of a racing heart anymore. But like relapse prevention is some of that stuff. Like the other, why did I develop an anxiety disorder? Well, maybe because you're you reason through your emotions, and that's a thing maybe you want to look at. That's a habit that gets you into trouble, or you're just not good at handling stress, or you steal against it, you don't express your emotion, whatever it is. You gotta do you'll do all that stuff because it probably did contribute. Yeah, but the contributing factors, I think this is one of those paradoxes we talk all the time. The contributing factors are not the solution, though, to an anxiety disorder. They help contribute to it, but you can't solve it by going to those things. First, you gotta put out the fire, then you can work on those contributing factors. I'm a firm believer in that.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

Absolutely, yeah. Um, sorry, I spoke up in there. No, it's right. Uh it's um it's a bit like when people say, like, I've tried mindfulness, my diet, exercise, etc. Yes, that is emptying the stress jug. Yeah. But only a little bit compared to the overwhelming overflow of your fear of fear and being in the anxiety cycle. Yeah. It's uh I like it as preventative. You do it for mood, you do it for overall wellness. You're not just your anxiety disorder, right? But at the moment when the anxiety disorder is very pressing and urgent, that's kind of what we deal with.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Yeah, I think you're right. Because when you deal with those contributing factors of the person who asked the question, you know, factors that exacerbate it, yeah. Once you can stand up again and you're not burning or you're not drowning in your stress drug that's always overflowing, like you might then start to learn new skills or habits or change things or process old things that you had buried for a long time. Because that otherwise, if you actually don't do that, you run the risk of like just doing the same thing again. So when your stress drug, life fills it up again. Oops, you get triggered, and then boom, you're back into the fear of fear. Like, oh, I had a setback, it's happening again. So you gotta kind of look at like, yeah, the contributing factors do matter once you can stand up and kind of work on those things. That helps you stay in the recovered state and just have a better life in general down the road. So it's a great topic. Yeah, this turned out to be really good.

SPEAKER_03 25:01

Yeah, surprising that we should sit down and go, Oh, I know. Also, we're kind of giving ourselves a pat on the back here. I'm not listening at home. They're like, what are these guys on about stress jugs and and all that nonsense?

SPEAKER_02 25:15

Yeah, I I get it. I think what about the compulsive why though? But I but but I'm just the kind of person that you know, I'm just the kind of person that needs to know, or I'm just curious. So I'm just gonna keep asking and keep asking. And I think sometimes the compulsive why is part of this guy, though, no? It's Craig the critic.

SPEAKER_03 25:33

Yeah, and it's also part of OCD, the need for 100% certainty. So if your OCD or obsessive compulsive tendencies have persuaded you that we must have 100% certainty about something that can manifest as a why.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

Why? I must know, and and I hear this quite a lot, particularly from the OCD community when I when I speak to them or I um get sent in a question, and it's like, yeah, but I need to know why, you know, I need this 100% certainty. And it's like part of the recovery is knowing enough and then leaving it alone. Yeah, I know it doesn't feel like enough, but allow rational brain to dictate if that's enough. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Yeah, you're right. And sorry, I stepped over you there, but sometimes it's identity issues or it or pokes at those old maybe self-image issues or or negative self-belief issues. If not only is the fear of fear, because the the anxiety state itself is scary, but if you think that your brain making a weird thought, like, oh, what if I stab the dog, is failing, it's not only disturbing and triggering, but just the fact that your brain makes that thought is failing. Just the fact that you were really anxious one Thursday afternoon randomly is failing, then you could get stuck in the compulsive why. But I need to know why it happens though, because I I can't allow it to happen. Not because I'm afraid of it, but I am, but also it feels like I shouldn't I should be able to control that.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

Or you can do, and I've said this to myself, oh yeah, my stress drug's overflowing right now. Like if I get heart palpitation, I'm like, oh, I must be quite tired and stressed. Right. The stress drug, actually, yeah, I've had a busy week. You know, maybe not eating well and done all this, and there's been things going on, and oh yeah, yeah. Or same as well, I even say this to myself, and it's good to enhance your metacognitive awareness. I'll say I address the why immediately because I don't need to go down the why rabbit hole of and I'll address it in five seconds. So, like I was on the tube the other week and I started to feel a bit, you know, like overwhelmed and this urge to escape. I was like, Why why is this happening? Oh, actually, yeah, I've I've been non-stop today, I've not rest, I've had no rest and stuff. And I was like, all right, okay. Well, willful tolerance, yeah, fine. Yeah, that and so it states that need to know why. It's like, oh yeah, my stress drug's overflowing. That's good, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

In that situation, you're able to turn off the tap, so it's that's not pouring more stress in. And now I can actually go to emptying whatever it was. I need more sleep, I gotta chill out and play video games for a while. Like, okay, cool, now I can do that.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

Yeah, and the key point here, by the way, for everyone is the answer is not to avoid the stress drug overflowing, it just answers the why. Right. I can tolerate the stress drug overflowing, it's called willful tolerance that we bang on about, or I can surrender to it, like Drew says. But it just states the bit of me that wants to hyperanalyze and fix. Like, oh, why is it? Oh, my stress drug overflowing. All right, I I can tolerate that, but because so also because I'm gonna be kind to myself later on, I'm gonna chill out and you know, I'd rather not feel that, but I'm willing to.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

The part where you just said kind to yourself, I think is so important too, because that's where things like mindful acceptance come into play or self-compassion. You're on the tube and you're starting to feel that feeling like years ago would have crushed you for three weeks, right? Now it doesn't. Cool. But if Josh in that moment had been like, now I'm I can't allow this, this isn't right. I should be able to control this. That is not kind at all. Nor is it self-compassionate, nor is it resisting your reality in the moment where you are anxious, too late. You're already anxious, you're already uncomfortable, you're already in a state of distress. So am I going to berate myself and resist it and try to undo whatever already happened in the past five minutes ago or 50 years ago to stop the current state? Or can I just be kind to my anxious self right now and accept that, like, yeah, I'm stressed, I'm overflowed, I'm dealing with a fear of fear, I have an anxiety disorder. I'm working on it. Like, I'm fighting it because you think it's unacceptable doesn't help. That's not very kind at all. There's no self-compassion in that at all. Sometimes you just have to like let yourself be anxious, you in the moment. Yeah, pounding on the table and yelling, why, why, why? Well, if you have the frustration, why, I think you got to let that out. So that's that weird like emotion that comes along with the process. I don't know if that makes any sense, but that's the thing I try to teach clients too. Like when you feel like I'm done with recovery, I don't want to have to do this, I'm so tired of feeling this way, I don't like my life this way. Cool, you're gonna have to express that and let that out. But as a solving thing, I must solve, that's where things get off the rails. That's not very kind to yourself at all.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

I went to my favorite brunch place the other day, and it's a really nice place um in South Manchester. There's this like kind of Spanish breakfast, and the highlight of it usually is that they have this homemade chili sauce, and I asked for it, I said, Can I have some of that homemade chili sauce? And this is an important story.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

I know. Can I tell you something though? I don't know if it's a real story or not. I think it is.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

Well, that's the point of compelling narrative storytelling. Okay, keep going. So, you're right, brunch in South America. I ordered my huevos rancheros brunch, and I asked for this hot sauce, and the guy looked at me and he said, Sorry, we're out of it. And you know what I did? I banged on the table and I screamed, why, why, why? Yeah. And subsequently, my str my stress drug overflowed and I developed an anxiety disorder because it's their fault. Why have they not made the hot sauce? I go there half for the hot sauce. It's not a brunch if you haven't got the appropriate condiment. I still don't know if that's a brunch, I just I thought this was a safe space to share.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

I except for the part where you pound on the table, I still don't know if that actually really happened. You're really good at this. I think it did. I think you did get a brunch. I can't tell. That's that's really great. But I think in in that situation, yeah, it's the resistance of reality. This is my reality right now. So I can keep I can like why is this happening? You know, like, oh, come on, universe, give me a break. Cool. That version of why we can deal with because you got to express your emotions. Why is this happening so I can make it end? Not so much, unless you're further down the road and you can figure out, like, oh, yeah, I accept the stress drug, this is what's happening, and then later on I'm gonna unwind and work on this stuff, or talk to my friend, or call my therapist and range a session or whatever. What are you gonna do? It's okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:23

Another shout out for the stress drug as well is that like you know there's just loads of ingredients in there. You don't need to know, oh, maybe my stress drug's overflowing because of X, Y, Z, this, that, that, that. No, just it's overflowing. I must be stressed, leave it vague because that's also a nice exercise into leaning into uncertainty. It's like, all right, my stress drug is overflowing, I must be stressed. I'll come to that later on. I'm not gonna try to urgently fix, just be like, well, that's happening now, and you can use it as part of acceptance, will be tolerance, surrendering, etc.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

I hear you. Should we go uh to more community stuff? 32 minutes in. We have anything else to say about why?

SPEAKER_03 33:01

I mean, he makes big batches of the hot sauce, and I just don't understand how he wouldn't think ahead. Like, I just this is really tough.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

If you we can hang after if you really need to process this, I'm happy to sit with you because I can see it's a impacts of it.

SPEAKER_03 33:14

Okay, I'm I'm willing to open up.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Yeah, what we got? Well, we got let's see, we have a written did it anyway, we have a voice did it anyway, and then we have a question, which evidently I have to answer. So, how about we do the written one? Because I I dig this one, I'll read it out. Um this comes from well, I don't want to say because she didn't say we was allowed to use your name, but I love how it starts. She says, Hi Josh and Drew, if you start a cult, I will join. And then in parentheses, she says, joking, but am I? So good start. Love to do that anyway, part of the pod. So I thought I'd share my story and hope that it helps someone. Uh almost two years ago, I had a life-changing experience that really messed with me. I don't know what reality was anymore. I had a lot of existential anxiety. I feel that uh I was having panic attacks daily and I was admitted to a mental health facility. I was supposed to be going on a work trip to New York where I used to live after leaving hospital, but I had to cancel, as a British person clearly, leaving the hospital in the U.S., but I had to cancel because I couldn't imagine even driving to the airport, let alone flying across the world and staying in the most intense city on earth by myself. But after doing a lot of work on myself as well as well as binging every episode of Disordered, and no, I'm not using you to techniqueify. Good, good job. Um, I started to feel a little more like myself. I booked a work trip to New York this past May, and I even added a three-day stop in LA to see some friends. I was terrified that I'd panic on the flight and we'd have to make an emergency landing. But I got on the flight, had a glass of wine, and watched several crappy movies. I love that they were crappy. Um, I stayed alone in LA for three nights and New York for 10 nights, took myself on solo adventures like hiking the Runyon Canyon, eating out in New York restaurants, and having a pint and various dive bars. Not too many. Hangovers suck. Um, it wasn't easy. I cried while I was walking around Hollywood, cried in my own neighborhood in Brooklyn. There's a lot of crying in Brooklyn, so that's okay. Um, cried in my hotel room in New York, but by the end of the trip, I realized that I was comfortable being alone and I even enjoyed it. Traveling solo allows you to do whatever you want, whenever you want, and it teaches you a lot about yourself. And on the plane ride home, I felt stronger, more confident, and happier than I had for years because this is great. Dot dot dot drumroll dot dot dot. I did it anyway. Thank you for all you do. Love it.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

Yeah, that's brilliant. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 35:27

Crying in Brooklyn, that's just a daily thing for most people. So it's fun.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

No, well done. That's that's brilliant. I love that. And thank you for sure that you can tolerate it, you can cope with it, and you accepted the feelings that came with it. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

Yeah, yeah. So, um, what else we got? We got an audio and then we have a question. Should we do those? Yeah. Let's do the audio did it anyway, because it's a really good one.

SPEAKER_04 35:50

Hello, this is Louise, and you can use my name. So I would like to share a thing that I'm very proud of. So when I have a fight in my romantic relationships, I usually get feelings of anxiousness along with feelings of shame or worthlessness. And this week when we had a fight, at first I did like my old habit. What I used to do is journaling as a technique of reflection in order to identify my own feelings, to de-escalate, and to prevent projections on others, etc. etc. Only I noticed that the feelings of shame and worthlessness became very sticky. And even journaling didn't bring me so much further. It didn't bring the magic thaw that would make me feel accepted and loved, etc. Instead, it made me even more anxious, and the feelings got worse. Surprise. And then then I finally realized what I was doing, and that I was heavily doing the invulse compulsion thing all the time, my whole life, with reflection. Quote. And of course, the feelings would amplify because of my anxiety, and especially my mental health anxiety, like, oh my god, I feel worthless and I have depression. Thanks for the episode on fear of depression, by the way. It's very helpful. So yeah, when I noticed I stopped doing it immediately, and I went outside doing groceries and made myself a nice hot chocolate as planned, and I had finally stopped the stupid cycle. And I used the techniques like journaling in order to yeah, identify my feelings for such a long time in my life. To be honest, sometimes I still don't get the difference between a helpful reflection and an inward compulsion. But I think this played a huge role in the development of my anxiety disorder, and I'm so, so, so happy and thankful about psychoeducation you guys do. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

That was one of the best ones ever.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

You were right. I love that one because it takes in on board all the principles of what what we know and and what we do, not identifying very smartly, actually. Well, journaling is good, but actually I I'm compulsively journaling and I'm trying to escape feelings and I'm trying to do things. And identifying that is fantastic, sitting with the uncertainty of it is fantastic, and doing what non-anxious you would do is fantastic. And I'm glad you're reaping the rewards of leaning into that uncertainty.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Yeah, I love it. I think in those, and by the way, I think the last episode three or two of the other podcasts I do, The Anxious Truth, is about this journaling with anxiety disorder. But I think sometimes you might find that this person would get a little bit of pushback on that. Well, it sounds like you're not you're not getting in touch with your feelings. No, no, no. You still know your feelings. You'll you'll be okay with that. Like you know how to do your feelings, but if I could recognize the compulsive expression of that and back up on that, then I go back to like a healthy relationship with my feelings. Cool. Well done. Very well done.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

Really good. Really, really, really good. Oh, you've got a question, Drew. It's directed to you, so I'm gonna sit back and stretch my hips.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

I'm gonna make you listen to it also, but like let's hear the question. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Hello to you both. Um, my name is Cheryl. You can use my name. I'm a question center inner. Um, my question is directed towards Drew, and certainly, Josh, you can chime in if you'd like to. But Drew, I was wondering, what is the one thing that you wish that you knew before becoming a licensed therapist? And um how has that changed the way um you see anxiety recovery, if at all? Because obviously you had the you know bulk of your recovery under your belt. But um, in what ways has becoming a licensed therapist helped you to help other people? So that's just a general question I had, and maybe some other listeners are wondering as well. So if you'd care to share, that'd be wonderful. Thank you both so much for the work that you do, and um, that's all for now.

SPEAKER_02 40:01

Oh, that's a good question. I think the number one thing I wish I knew is how sexy a job therapy really is. I mean, how many times you leave your office and the paparazzi are there and the throngs of adoring fans, it's really difficult. I wish somebody could tell me about that. But the real answer to the question, it's a really good question, Cheryl, and thank you for sending it in. I think the thing that I wish I was, I probably already sort of knew this was going to happen, but I wish I was a little more well-versed in is the fact that, and this is not a knock, but is the fact that I am usually the odd dude in a room full of therapists. As an anxiety specialist, I'm the odd duck. Now, when I hang out with Josh and Kim and people like Lauren and Joanna and stuff, yeah, we're not odd ducks. We can't we congregate in places like you know, the uh AADA or the IOCDF conferences. But when you sit in a room with a lot of other therapists, we're the weirdos. I I'm the one that tells the person, like, no, no, no, you know that hand washing compulsion your client is having that doesn't necessarily symbolize being unclean. Ask them what happens if they don't. Oh, but what? But there must be some you know psychodynamic thing underneath that, right? There's some sort of intra-psychic conflict. Like, no, not necessarily. So I wish I had been a little bit more aware of the fact that sometimes we swim against the current in this anxiety specialization. I I don't know. That that's the only thing I can think of. I'm still more than happy to do it. I don't mind swimming against the current, but sometimes we have to explain ourselves to our peers very often. I'm actually doing a talk about that next Friday in a conference here on Long Island for other therapists called Are We Afraid of Exposure Therapy? Like, why are you afraid to do this? Well, you know, are we just sadistic, you know, SOBs, you and me, Josh? I don't know. I'd love to be at that talk. Come on down.

SPEAKER_03 41:41

You'll you'll nail it. Yeah, uh, good question. I'd agree, same for me. Um, not only swimming against the current, but also knowing that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:51

It's like so therapists aren't going to agree with you, and that's fine. Yeah, it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

And well, you know what? And the fact that we are encouraged to find the theoretical orientation, the modalities that resonate with us on a personal level, which is why I would still say, yeah, therapy is science, but it's not totally, because you know, that's that's training, at least here in the states. Like, what's your therapeutic or what's your theoretical orientation? But it's the one that resonates with you. You're allowed to pick that as long as it's grounded in some theory, which could even be like Edelarian, as crazy as that sounds. You could pick that if you want, ain't nobody could tell you that you're doing it wrong. So, okay, just that's why it takes so long to find the right therapist sometimes. It happens anyway. Great question. Just for the record, ethical practice, pre-licensed at the moment. If you're listening in real time in 2024, see me again when that's done. So that's the deal.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

Cool. Thank you for tuning in, guys.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Yeah, I think we're good. If you guys have questions or want to participate with Did It Anyways and that sort of stuff, find us at disorder.fm and join the mailing list, which we never use, but we will use to announce our round table things for sure. Yeah. Um, I think that's a great way for us to communicate. So hop on the list. We don't spam you, but when we we schedule round table sessions, we'll send it out on that list. So do that. And I don't know. Maybe they could review the podcast if they dig it. Where should they do that? Apple, Spotify, who else?

SPEAKER_03 43:07

Yeah, send them in. We really appreciate them.

SPEAKER_02 43:09

Yeah, you guys are very kind to us. Thank you for spending time with us every Friday. We really appreciate it. And we'll be back next week with another one.

SPEAKER_03 43:16

The thing is, the table next to me had a bottle of hot sauce. And I was kind of like indicating that I think the finisher there, but they were like, no, no, no, that's their table. And I was just like,