Willful Tolerance and the Sensitized State (Episode 98)

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hi, Drew and Josh. My name is Nicole. I am from New Jersey. I have a question for both of you. In the past, I've been used to dealing with crippling anxiety and depression that would cause physical impacts, which I listened to your podcast a lot during that time. And with help from a therapist and you guys, I was able to really work on my skills and get to a good place in my recovery. It's been about a year and a half since then. And I just got broken up with on Tuesday and I'm heartbroken. I am finding myself falling back into the same, I don't want to say routine, but same experience that I had when I was really anxious and depressed. And I guess my question for you guys is I understand that my stress jug is really filled up, but I want to know practical advice for dealing with the physiological impacts of anxiety and depression. I've been having a really hard time eating and waking up in the morning and going to bed. So if you guys have any advice on that, that would be greatly appreciated. I love your podcast. I love this community. And I so very much thank you for all the work that you guys do. It's incredible. And because of you guys, I know that what I'm going through right now is not going to be forever. So much love to both of you and thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 98, entitled Willful Tolerance and the Sensitized State, which Drew and I have agreed would be our band name. Drew would be on guitar to play the two chords he knows. And I would play the triangle. I'm grade seven triangle player. So if you are looking for a session musician, I can strike the triangle at uh appropriate points. I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders. In Manchester in the UK, I'm the author of several books. The latest called And How Does That Make You Feel? Uh, the paperback is out in March. So if you're cool, you'll buy it. If you're not, then you can have be whoever you want. I don't ignore me. Uh, I'm also the co-host of this podcast, and it's always a pleasure to tune in with my friend and esteemed co-host every week.

SPEAKER_04 2:31

And I am Drew Linsolata, guitarist in Willful Tolerance and the Tensor State with my two chords. Uh, also a psychotherapist or therapist. We don't say psychotherapist in the US, but we could, uh, specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York, uh, former sufferer of these same problems that you may have if you're listening to us, author, psychoeducator, advocator, advocate that whole nine yards. And uh, yeah, really looking forward to our world tour when we release our debut album. I don't know what the name of that album will be, but two chords and a ding. It's a deficit.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:05

The crowd goes crazy. So yeah. Right? Wembley will be our first gig.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Wembley will be the first gig, warm-up gigs, and then St. James's Park in Newcastle.

SPEAKER_04 3:16

I knew them when they were only playing Wembley. That would be cool.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Thank you to Nicole for that great question. Uh, obviously, we're we're saddened to hear about your breakup. Um, but what is encouraging is that you're framing it as okay, the breakup has added to my stress jug, and it's put me in a sensitized state. I've noticed I'm back into old habits. Uh, it's a this episode was uh is akin to the episode we did a long time ago on resensitization and desensitization. Um, but I've noticed when I've been working with people recently and talking and stuff that I am using the term a sensitized state a lot. And because it applies to almost all anxiety disorders, whether it's OCD, panic disorder, agoraphobia, GAD, constantly monitoring how I feel, don't like how I feel, uh, if you're a ruminator, um, you it all falls under the umbrella of the sensitized state. What do you think, Drew?

SPEAKER_04 4:13

I agree 100%. And I think talking about the sensitized state and especially connecting it to the idea of willful tolerance is really important because I I find that it is one of the most difficult things to actually explain to somebody. And when they're doing, you know, kind of what they have to do to try and improve their lives and get better, it's one of the hardest things for a human being to actually come to grips with. Like, oh, I I oh, I really do have to allow myself to really feel the things, even all the things. Like I've lost my appetite because I'm heartbroken. Uh isn't there some sort of tip for fixing that? Like it's so hard for us to really finally reach that conclusion. Like, all right, I'm I guess I'm just gonna this is happening now and I'm gonna have to deal with it. Nobody wants to get there. I totally appreciate that too.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

Yeah, to be looking back, I like it just describes my journey with anxiety like simply and helps me understand it. So just you know, I was in my mid-20s, my stress drug overflowed, it put me in a sensitized state. I've been stressed all my life, but for some reason at that point, the tipping point, and it put me in a sensitized state. The sensitized state then kept my attention and it kept me in the cycle of the sensitized state. That can apply to panic attacks, panic disorder. So I had a huge panic attack, didn't know what it was, put me in a sensitized state. I fear the sensitized state, so I keep an eye on it, it has my attention. I had an intrusive thought when walking uh with my family, and it put me in a sensitized state, and everyone with OCD remembers that intrusive thought when it hits you out of nowhere. You don't like the sensitized state, so you give it all your attention and try to fix it, analyze it, etc. Yeah, you know, it's it's uh it happens to anything. Health anxiety, you know, I have an ache and a pain, bang, puts me in a sensitized state. I try to fight my way out the sensitized state by googling, reassurance, seeking, avoiding whatever. Willful tolerance and the sensitized state is that well, how how do we turn off the sensitized state? How do we do it? Well, we don't go down the route of regulating ourselves by biohacking and trying to force a feeling, but this episode is for people that are like, well, how do I get back to a desensitized state? How do I get out of a sensitized state? Yeah, um, and interestingly, before we press record, Drew and I, when doing this episode, are both currently in a temp, well, I don't know if you are now, Drew, but currently in a sensitized state.

SPEAKER_04 6:43

No, well, believe it or not, that's a real that's really good. I was saying, you know, I barely slept last night for a variety of reasons, which is okay. And I was feeling really depersonalized when we started recording. But I we've been engaging now for 20, 30 minutes, just getting ready for the episode and chatting. And sure enough, I don't, it's not there anymore because I stopped. I'm fine now.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

Yeah, yeah, I'm fine. I did it for an hour, yeah. But it's interesting, like, but that was it. That the attitude towards the sensitized state is that we were already doing well, we're willfully tolerating that. It's not, oh god, I'm depersonalized. Why am I here? I need to fix it. And for me, I just felt like nauseous and bloated and a bit bit of DPDR. And I was like, Yeah, I also didn't sleep well last night and a bit stressed. Oh, it makes sense. Whatever, what am I doing next? Yep. Yeah. In those examples, is willful tolerance.

SPEAKER_04 7:31

We have another one from the community, and I want to play with it, play it because it's a really good one. It speaks directly to what we're talking about today. But one thing I want to say before I hit the play button is a lot of people will be confused. They'll be like, Well, I'm not fighting it, I'm not trying to get away from it, but but I'm still looking for ways to deal with it, which is that attention thing that Josh was just talking about. We did this shock attention resistance, right? I'm gonna give it all my attention and watch it and monitor it and check to see if it's okay. That is in fact resistance. That so it's hard not to do that, but when you listen to this did it anyway, which I'm gonna play right now, like keep that in mind. It's not always escape, it's sometimes it's just attention that gets us, and this person talks directly about it. So here we go.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Hey Drew, hey Josh, um longtime listener, first time caller. Um, anyways, my name is Jared. Um, of course, you can use my name. I am a health anxiety sufferer as well as panic disorder. Um, and just yesterday, um, while I was in my work, um, I started to feel a little heart flutter. Um, my um pulse rising. I mean, I could feel it in my chest. Um, and thanks to um Jash's and my continuous rewording um of panic attack as an adrenaline rush, I was able to think there for a second, label it as an adrenaline rush, um, and then I was able to move about my day. And eventually everything started to subside when I wasn't, you know, hyperfixating on it like I normally do, um, which I wouldn't have been able to do without your guys' help. So I really appreciate it. Thank you guys so much for all that you do. You guys are truly very pivotal uh on my recovery. And you guys are amazing. Keep up the great work um and much love to all the anxious community. Love you guys.

SPEAKER_04 9:22

Well, that was pretty awesome. That was very awesome. That was a great example of willful tolerance in the form of I'll I'm I would just this is happening now. I know what this is.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Yeah, that detachment. Well, Nicole in Nicole's um question, you know, there was like I've I I've I've noticed that this is it. So there's that mindful detachment already of that acknowledgement of what's happening, yeah. But then it's what we do next. How much am I still engaging with it? Um and this, you know, willful tolerance is particularly tricky for people who always ask, well, what does this mean? Why is this here? How do I get rid of it? Looking at it, an attention effort will get rid of it. Um, but Jared, that's how you do it. Well done, man.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

Yeah, at one at some point, you know, and I've talked a lot about this lately. If you listen to my other podcast, I'm in a three-part series on that. Like, this is that first part of that act triflex, like open up, which is, or I mean, get present, which is like, well, what is actually happening right now? So in Jared's case, it's like, well, I had a little heart flutter, I felt it, I'm afraid of that, and now I'm feeling afraid. Okay, that's what's actually happening, which prevents going directly to the what does this mean? What's going to happen? Am I okay? And it gives you the opportunity to say, okay, now what are my options? Well, one of them would be to let it happen and go back to work or whatever it is I'm doing. I think in Nicole's case, you would tie it to like, what's actually happening now? Well, I had a really important relationship, and which is really impacting me, and I'm feeling all the feels now, and it's it's making me feel things physically. That's what's actually happening now. So, you know, now what where do we go from here is the big question. Now, what do we do with this?

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Yeah. Yeah. How do I get rid of this feeling? Was actually, you know, if you come out of a breakup and things are stressful and your life's been turned upside down and thick things, you're gonna feel some stressful things. Yeah, but what doesn't help is when you're adding fuel to the bonfire by trying to resist it, you know, and it's like, okay, I'm gonna wake up and feel things today and let my anxious body do anxious body things. Does it require me to monitor it all day and try and fix it? No, it doesn't. What would non-anxious me be doing, which is something I repeat like a parrot? And you know, what would non-anxious me be doing? And um, is what I'm doing right now teaching my threat response that this feeling is okay.

SPEAKER_04 11:40

I think this is one of the things that defines the context that you and I are always working in. The person with an anxiety disorder who gets to what they feel is a recovered state, which is awesome, everybody gets to define that on their own, and finds themselves sensitized again or resensitized. We talked about this before. A good clue that you're that those old pathways, those old disordered pathways don't ever go away. They're still there, like lurking and waiting. Is am I really focused on what happened or am I focused on how I feel about what happened? And now I'm ooh, though that old, that old we we we talked about in the uh resensitization or relapse episode, we talked about reversion. I'm reverting back to use those other habits that say, ooh, let me pay attention to how I feel about how I feel, instead of how I paying attention to how I feel. Very different animal. So I think that's a that's a big clue, uh, Nicole, especially for sure. Like with a big breakup that way. I if she came on and said, like, hey guys, my boyfriend broke up with me, we've been dating for eight years, we thought we were gonna get married, but since I'm so recovered, I'm feeling doing great, I feel nothing, would be like, really? Like that that would be the weird part for for you and I to hear that. So like we would expect you to be impacted by that for sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

That that resensitization, that the fear of fear, and we revert back to old behaviors because those, yeah, like Drew said, a lot of the uh uh neuropathways and the habits are are there, they don't really go. It's interesting when you hear that question, you're like, when does it ever go away? Will I ever be me again? I'm like, well, we're never us again in any way because of whatever we do in life, because we're an amalgamation of our experiences, right? You know, but what they actually mean is, you know, will I ever not feel anxious again? It's like, well, of course, you won't feel anxious again. But also when something as profound as being stuck in an anxiety disorder for quite a long time, when that becomes a habit, it's okay. And so, how do I apply willful tolerance to that scenario? You know, I'm I'm sensitized or I'm I've just I'm first time sensitized, I'm having panic attacks, I found the disordered podcast, I really hate my anxiety. How do I get through it? Okay, we will willfully tolerate the symptoms and minus the compulsions. But if you're that person who's like I'm relapsing or I'm re-sensitized or I'm here again, then okay, usually what I say is that oh, you've been tolerating it, everyone tolerates it, everyone's done 50% of the work. Even when if you're listening to this now, sat at home, you're not left the house for a week. You've still tolerated your anxiety, but the willful part of it is part of the attitude shift that we speak about. It's like, okay, I'm back in a sensitized state. I need to work on willfully tolerating this. Is what I'm doing right now willfully tolerating it? No, I'm resisting, fixing, working out, researching, reassurance seeking, listening to these two idiots. And I'm trying to, you know, I need to get back on with my life again.

SPEAKER_04 14:47

Yeah, yeah. And I it that sensitized state too is such an interesting with the way we define it too, again, in this context. I would argue that for people who like can remember life before an anxiety disorder or non-anxious them, or like, when am I going to be me again? I might say, Well, you're you now. You're just really concerned about how you feel. But there's a really good chance that even non-anxious you experienced hundreds of thousands, if not more, of different distressed and disturbing feelings, or physical sensations, or sadness, or you had big emotions. You just didn't declare how you felt to be the most important thing in the room all the time. You maybe understood that this is part of life. Like, yeah, you were sad, you were happy, you were excited, you were angry, you're disappointed, you had an upset stomach, your heart raced, like you were short of breath some days when you were really stressed. Like, yeah, that all happened just that you weren't so super focused on it. So that's the defining thing. Like, oh, how I feel has become the most important thing in the room again. And I don't like that, so I will try to fix that. Yeah, but you're you, you're just afraid of how you feel. You, that's all right, you're still you, you didn't go away, I promise.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

So yeah, that's such a good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um what does it often? It often it often applies as well when people like when you get people OCD, and they're like, Oh, I've not been anxious two years, I've not had an uh an OCD theme for two years, uh, or I've not been anxious for two years, and I've noticed that I'm now anxious again. I would I mean Jared pointed out one of the reframes that I use is like it's not a panic attack, it's an adrenaline rush in a situation that you don't want in. Um, and you're trying to make sense of it, and it of course it doesn't make sense. Having adrenaline rushes in Walmart is not, you know, a congruous thing, isn't it? It feels gonna feel quite incongruous, and so it adds to the fear. Uh, whereas if you're having an adrenaline rush on a roller coaster or a scary film or attempting to watch Newcastle play out from the back, yeah, it makes sense. You don't question it, it doesn't add that secondary fear. But if you're applying the question to, you know, why am I sensitized again? Why is this well you're sensitized because an old habit come in where we give attention and effort to resisting what Judah said, how I feel, and I hate that. You know, and then we need to go, that's fine, just leave it there. So I'm realized I'm sensitized now. Be compassionate, like the Elaine episode, Elaine Bauman episode from last. Acknowledge it, I'm sensitized. It's compassionate because people can be resensitized. What what old habits am I falling into here? Ah, yes, I've lost the willful part of tolerance and I'm resisting fighting, and I'm trying to punch my way out of a paperback. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:26

I think one of the telling things in Nicole's question, this is not an accusation, it's just it's also very common. My skills, like I learned my skills, like I learned those skills. Well, and I always ask, well, what skills did you learn? And sometimes the answer is, well, I learned how to regulate or I learned how to calm down. My therapist taught me breathing skills and grounding and 54321. And I got really good at using them. And now I need more tips. So interestingly, I think part of willful tolerance in the sensitized state is accepting the idea that you really need less skills, not more. Like we're trying to use less skills. There's a reason why people like Josh and I would probably not teach you those skills. You know, it there are certain instances where we might have to do that, but it's pretty rare. Like a lot of people come into therapy and are like, okay, when are we going to learn like all the skills? And well, what skills do we? No, we're not learning skills. We're not learning to calm your panic or calm your anxiety. So usually when you think, oh, I I learned the tools or the skills, or I have my tools, that's always a clue too. Like a person with true willful tolerance will often be like, I what tools? I I actually put my tools away. That's when I got really better.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

I applied it with some like when I work with the phone response, people pleasers and people like that. And like one of the things I teach is willful tolerance. I don't really kind of frame it like that. I say, What we're gonna do is we're gonna practice sitting in silence awkwardly, you know, and a lot of clients, particularly with social anxiety and stuff like that, they'll be like, that sounds horrible. I was like, Yep, just gonna sit in silence. And all the emotions that come up, the cringe, the embarrassment, the awkwardness, the hyperfocus, we're gonna allow them to be there because for your entire life you fought to not feel that shame or whatever, but we're gonna willfully tolerate all of the emotions that come up because all feelings are transient, yeah. And to be honest, I'll feel the cringe a bit too. But I'm practicing willful tolerance, and that's what you do. You're not like Josh, I'm having a panic attack. Okay, cool. It's not cool. You say this. No, that's cool. Our homework starts right now, then. Yeah, cool, allow it to be there. What do I do? Is can I breathe into a bag? You know, five things I can see, four things I can smell, three things I can push off a windowsill. No, just feel it. It's horrible, it's nasty, it's uncomfortable, but we're teaching it that it's not a threat in itself.

SPEAKER_04 19:51

I'm sorry, three things I can push off a windowsill.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Every time you go out and log into Instagram, it's like self-soothing. You know, not gonna name the Instagram accounts, but you know, this is why five ways you can heal from your anxiety stuff. Yeah, you're not a warrior, you're not a healer, you're a human and you're doing better than you think, and you're not wounded and you're not broken.

SPEAKER_04 20:11

This is why we all have ground floor offices, because when we go to teach that three things in the window still, people get hurt. So it's a ground floor. Um I get it though. But the will, the willful part, you're right, you're right. I think it's so important to return to that. Like the you've always handled it. I always say handle it because people are like, no, I don't tolerate it. Okay, well, you'll handled it. You've handled every disturbing, difficult, scary, frightening, uncertain, upsetting, debilitating. I I we got into it a little bit in uh in a group supervision thing last week where you know someone was asking me a question about well, what would you do in a situation where this person is experiencing anxiety this way? And I answered, and what are the other things?

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Do, do, do.

SPEAKER_04 20:52

Yeah, it was like, yeah, but what if it's what about when it's debilitating? What do you do? I'm like, well, first you question, is it really debilitating? It's feeling afraid, debilitation. I mean, yeah, if you're afraid because somebody is threatening you, or you know, whether there's an actual danger, then sure it might be. You got to get out of that and and get yourself safe. But if there's no threat, you're just afraid of how you feel. Is that debilitating? It's it's not. I mean, that we start with that assertion that, like, yes, not being able to sleep or not being able to eat, and I know that's a hard sell. Like, no, this is you don't understand, this is debilitating to me. Okay, but that doesn't leave you a whole lot of room to go in. It kind of backs into the corner because you are feeling that. So then your only choice is well, tell me how to turn it off, which we don't do.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

So I would I would agree it is debilitating, but temporarily, it depends on your relationship to that. If it's like this is debilitating, if this is debilitating and I have to stop my life until I fix it, then yeah, okay. You know, like you know, if I've broken my leg, that's debilitating and I have to adapt my life to it. Right. But when people say, No, when this happens, it's debilitating, what do we do? do and we're saying well no like nothing like let's practice like it isn't debilitating and be with the uncomfortable feelings but it and it can be temporarily debilitating but it also tricks you into thinking you aren't uh you're a less capable than you think whereas you broke your leg you know you're not playing football anytime soon unless you play for Manchester United you would probably get into the first team but in general it's like it depends what your relationship with that is I don't like you know people talk about their experiences you know like panic attacks are traumatic I'm like okay I'm not gonna say they're not and they can do I certainly feel that but then it depends what you do afterwards and your relationship with that I think that's important.

SPEAKER_04 22:45

It's it's so important in that that debilitating thing because that placed a willful tolerance and you know you're in a sensitized state so you declare that feeling to be unhandlable. And then even for I don't care how you got there. I don't care if you used ice packs I don't care if you did nothing it doesn't matter in the end when it peters out because it will and we know this we rely on this every day it's that moment where like well that was debilitating even though it did in fact end and I'm still here and I can go about the rest of my day if I if I can get myself together to do that. But then I can't allow the next time but but you did you know it's it's it's that weird meta thing that says like yeah but you did handle it. You actually did handle it. Yeah but it felt so bad. Okay but it felt so bad is not the same as I was debilitated.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 23:33

So that's such an important distinction it becomes that's that part of that willful tolerance thing too and and often when you work with people it's that's a hard style at first and they get there when they get there and it's fine we can't we can't berate you into willfully tolerating it's like all right well we're just gonna keep trying different metaphors and let you chew on that and bounce it around a little bit and you never know what comes up as part of that process. And at some point people and I I did that personally I didn't know I was doing that but I reached the conclusion that like I gotta stop doing it this way. This is not working for me. And you get there when you get there. Yeah you get there when you get there. So and it's okay be be patient with yourself and and you'll figure it out when you figure it out it's okay everybody goes gets there their own way so but how do I do willful tolerance is what I often hear.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

I'll tell you how you do it. Yeah I'll tell you I do it you do it the moment you're anxious you know you don't go and do something like just you just do it when you're anxious. I feel the panic rising the intrusive thought is really getting me I've noticed I'm ruminating I've noticed I hate this feeling I've noticed I want to kind of get rid of it great that's step one that's how you to do willful tolerance you have to be anxious. Yeah you know we don't tolerate feeling good do we no like it's it's more than welcome we can willfully tolerate something we don't like I call it that's why the the word tolerate is that I don't you're not supposed to like anxiety you're not supposed to achieve acceptance and and and stuff with it it's just okay step one I'm anxious brilliant I've started my homework that's powerful because a lot of people get annoyed when they're anxious but then you're not doing willful tolerance because step one of willful tolerance is step one be anxious. Okay great now I've erased Craig the critic who's going in going see you're anxious again you know you didn't you didn't watch enough of Russell Kennedy's YouTube videos you're not gonna do really well you know you know no no you didn't step one is that reframe and then step two is okay I'm gonna practice engaging with what non-anxious me would potentially might do. You might not know what you're doing because panic can hit you or anxiety can hit you or an intrusive thought can hit you at any point of the day. Yeah but just have have have a vague idea of actually no I was going to go in the kitchen actually and I was going to make myself a sandwich or I was about to watch this TV show. And even though I don't feel like it now I'm gonna do that or I was going to drive to work. And then noticing those inwards compulsion checking things you know all these episodes are available in the parking lot oh I'm checking to see if it's gone checking to see if it's better. I'm checking to see if willful tolerance is working. Well then you're not so go back go back into being willfully tolerating and it's okay it's always messy it doesn't look perfect perfectionists beware just each time you catch yourself compulsing oh no I'm doing willful tolerance I'm supposed to be feeling this way and back again and give yourself a pat on the back and that's what I do that's what I did to get better is what I still do today be careful about the you know the emotions about the emotions too it's like when you're saying if you're really annoyed or angry especially if you're carrying some of that into the process the fact that I get anxious to the point where I feel interrupted or whatever you want to call it, debilitated if you will, that's failure.

SPEAKER_04 26:55

Like I should but what's wrong with me? Why can't I get it? I keep listening to podcasts and reading books. Why something's wrong with me and I'm ruining everybody's day or I'm defective okay you can't just turn those off like oh I if I if I have those feelings then I'm really not willfully tolerant and it becomes really a vicious cycle. But what you can do is say, I got triggered I'm afraid of this feeling and then I have a bunch of emotions that come along with that based on maybe my life experiences or my culture or whatever it is. And now I'm feeling afraid and angry and disappointed but I'm allowed to feel it like okay now what am I going to do with those feelings as opposed to now it's I'm anxious and angry and because I got angry at the anxiety means I'm not willfully tolerating or accepting I I got to go back and read listen to more podcasts. More effort more doing more attention less effort less effort as crazy as it is it's about learning to do less about how you feel which is weird because and it's hard to get your brain around that and I this is a thing that I've landed on in the last five or six months and I probably will stay here forever. Especially in the West where we are the Billy's dying on yeah this is why we rely on in the West and especially in the US and Australia I'm talking to you too because we have that very similar like unbridled personal freedom culture. It's in Western Europe too but your your history and landed gentry tempers it a little bit whereas we were born out of here in the US out of we will overrun anything that stands in our way and we take and we fix and we master and we control. We change the course of rivers just because we can it's in our social DNA the idea that like sometimes you just feel bad and you can't do anything about it is it's no bueno. We do not like it. So that's something we can't control right I can't fix it. Hang in there observe and it will fix itself yeah observe and it'll fix itself observe oh I've observed I'm in a say I don't like I've observed this emotion I don't like I've I've observed this intrusive thought yeah I've observed the sense and feeling of urgency and I'm observing it yep you know you know else you can observe white tailed hawks called eagle that is every time that I read about something came up over the weekend on that too like in films they will often use red tail hawk because eagles sound ridiculous and they do and a red tail hawk it's a red tail white tailed hawk now I have to google that I don't know let me call my ornith tell me it exists. I hope it does you would think it should I'm sure it was a white tail oh there was a video of an eagle some nesting eagle she's in a snowstorm and like keeping her eggs warm it's cool you know and then she starts to vocalize nothing there's nothing impressive about an eagle's vocalization. So they they threw in the red tail hawk because it sounds menacing.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

Again that's what we do here it's uh it is I I found it I found what a white tailed hawk sounds like you ready for it I'm ready I knew it wasn't going to be a bird I just couldn't I didn't know what he was going with so anyway all right have we beaten this horse to death yeah willfully tolerate um I just had a thought then like do you know I I couldn't remember the white tail one of my OCD themes many years ago is see you're losing your brain you couldn't recall information so I'd spend the rest of the day not willfully tolerating that and like testing and see your memory's going and this stuff like that you're losing your mind it's it's it's degenerating and whatever that's an example of not willfully tolerating the anxiety I'd have tolerated the anxiety but it's not a nice fun way to spend the rest of my day just noticing ah my brain would have gone there and even then because it's an old habit the old neuropathu was there and I'm like I'm not doing that I'm not doing that when you said white tail and I said red tail that that just an old it didn't trigger it didn't trigger me but it was like a oh wow my brain remembers that from years ago I I would have spent the whole day like googling testing getting loved ones to be like can you ask me like when I was born and when you were born I'm like good I'm not going down the OCD hole again it's boring and it's exhausting that's that's how you know like because you can't unlearn we to talk about this stuff you can't unlearn what you learned you can't unsee what you've seen now.

SPEAKER_04 31:07

So the option to test your memory for the next eight hours in a row although if you'd like to stay online with me I'll I'll ask you trivia questions I'm I'm happy to spend my day doing that but that's one option that's still available to you it's just do I choose that option well maybe for a minute or two if I get like a little bit overwhelmed but then I'm gonna what am I doing? I'm gonna go I like that you're bringing more compassion to stuff I'm really enjoying this Drew.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

I miss snipers on the rooftop Drew a little bit from you know three four years ago yeah assault on precinct 13 I really like it. Oh I appreciate it so uh uh we got some community stuff uh can I read a did it anyway you sure can because I got nothing else to play so you're gonna have to read cool here's one from from P. Um hi guys here is a doing it anyway this is the hardest thing I've done over the past year. Last week I had to do an international flight to the other side of the world I'm attending the wedding of someone who's very close to me. The whole journey was 40 hours long with three flights four airports and over 10 time zones. Standing in line waiting walking under fluorescent lighting being in crowds it was the worst of my fears in one nifty package I was anxious DPDR'd tired but I did it anyway well I had no choice I would dispute that I think you did have a choice I found a few people who are in the same situation and we grabbed a meal together at two at the airports. Four days later I attended the groom's bachelor party it started at 9 p.m and went on until 5 a.m I never stay up so late and I haven't drank this much in years and years. I had all my anxiety symptoms but was distracted enough with all the conversation that it didn't bother me too much. You weren't distracted enough you chose to focus on that. Sorry I'll shut up but I did it anyway the next day was a nightmare all my anxious and anxiety symptoms sensitized me again back to sensitization. I had to bow out of preparations and go to bed early I was a little disappointed but then realized it was Craig the critic who didn't want me to acknowledge my wins we all need rest and that's just what I had to do. So that's me don't mind doing it anyway the wedding is in three days and we'll see how that goes that's from P. That's awesome I love that his reaction as well to the resensitization of course you've flown around the world you're exhausted you're eating airport meals you go on a stagdo you're doing all these things and then oh I wonder why I'm sensitized you spotted Craig the critic and go like actually no I'm that's cool I'm gonna build on that I'm I think that's a wonderful delay anyway thank you Pm that message was like a grand tour of our soundboard too like I was gonna go for Billy Mays but I'm not done yet he went to the I should have paused the critic was in there you know but I'm not done yet just kept going like great about that and I gotta tell you like even non-anxious people 40 hours of traveling to the other side of the world man I wouldn't want to do it.

SPEAKER_04 34:09

Oh I would be terrified this is gonna suck.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

So well done very good time thanks for sharing uh any more I've got oh go one more did it anyway if we've got time yeah bring it we got a couple minutes sure okay cool um here we go this one's beginning they don't give permission to use their name but we'll start Manchester United I just wanted to get your attention smiley emoticon okay well you have it and everyone else's uh I also wanted to share a did it anyway with you I've had debilitating health anxiety do you hear that Drew debilitating I heard avoidant type to the point where I needed in inpatient treatment six months ago not long uh not long after being discharged I discovered your podcast to say it has been life changing would be an understatement since then I have had an OB appointment an annual skin exam and a mammogram all things I've been putting off due to health anxiety but I'm not done yet literally written no kidding all right yeah but I'm not done yet I got blood work done this week which I have been putting off for two years and today I had my physical exam where the doctor gave me the results all is well I was so nervous for the past few days waiting for the appointment but I remained willfully tolerant of the uncomfortable feelings and the uncertainty I even aim for 51% of attention on a stand-up comedy special I watched for distraction before going to the appointment and reminded myself that I would be okay even if something came up in my blood work. Not just as long as nothing comes up. This is good isn't it I am so happy to say thanks in large part for your podcast but I'll also give myself the credit I am finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and prepared to take anxiety with me as I move through the ups and downs of life I cannot thank you guys enough.

SPEAKER_04 36:01

That is one of my favorites that was really good not only for the accomplishments and all the the lessons that person takes we're not special we get on these mics every week and we talk nonsense and we're we we're silly but it's always so nice when somebody you can tell that person has been listening and trying really hard to integrate what they hear into their life and you get huge credit for that because there's such a difference between reading watching listening and then actually trying to apply it so big respect for actually trying to put those lessons into play in your day-to-day life and I'm glad that it was all good news medical testing trust for anybody so and even that even that that bit was like but even if it's not right even if you're willfully willfully tolerant willfully tolerating something you take for the rest of your life. Yeah don't get me wrong you're allowed to worry about things but it's that spiral the inwards the compulsive the cycle things that really really get in the way of life and that's kind of what Drew and I try to to teach people to step out off of no yeah she wasn't this person was definitely not focused on what if we guys collectively Josh and I and anybody who listens we are collectively in the even if business like it or not so shoot for even if even if I'll handle it.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

I'll figure it out if I have to so very good well done yeah well done thank you for tuning in guys uh thank you for the recent um reviews and stuff on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and things we really appreciate that uh we've also got some on disorder.fm as well which we really appreciate uh what we like to read um and yeah if you if you want to help other people to find us we'd really appreciate those things on other platforms uh yeah willfully tolerating willful tolerance uh and the sensitized state will be touring near you soon at a dive bar with three people a man spitting into his own hat and gone off draft beer that I will buy anyway because why not? Um yeah so look out for the for the tour dates um it's all about willful tolerance or if you really want the answer to all your anxiety problems I've written it on page 37 of and how does that make you feel the paperback version of the book which is out on March 13th. That's where the real answer lies but if you can't be bothered getting the book because you hate me then you can apply this willful tolerance stuff and that's fine.

SPEAKER_04 38:24

What they don't know is you have to read page 37 backwards. You know how long it took them to write that you don't see the answer when you read a phone don't do that. Anyway guys thanks for listening we'll be back next week we're gonna talk about existential dread we're gonna be talking about it now but you'll hear it next week yeah all right thanks for listening we're out see you next week